I am transitioning into the realm of ISSF shooting and would like to know a whole lot more about the various marques of pistol before committing to any one in particular. I've looked into the Hammerli 240, 280 and SP-20 and a bit into the Walther GSP.
I have had only limited exposure to these fine weapons and am seriously considering acquiring one. So, which bear is best? Are there any serious technical advantages between the 240 and the 280, noting the magazine placement and so forth. I understand that the later 280s and the SP20s are fairly comparable--are there significant benefits to the SP20--what about the RRS?
I am shooting a Marvel 22 conversion and a S&W 25-2 at the moment. The Revolver does pretty well with 155 LSWC at modest velocity, so the attraction of a strictly 38 wad gun for CF is not as attractive unless it's crazy accurate. On the other hand, a P240 with all three uppers would be worth looking at, especially as I have a pile of 38 148 HBWC on hand.
I suppose what I'm looking for is a condensed intro to the merits of each and recommendations for a reasonably competent shooter to undertake a major investment. I've worn out my welcome with the EIC matches so it's time for me to start taking 2700s and international more seriously.
I'd appreciate any input. Also, I am willing to accept PM solicitations for trade/sale.
Incidentally, I shoot bullseye as well and will consider any advice on 50 yard CF pistols as most welcome.
Comparrison of Various Hammerli/Walther Olympic-CISM pistols
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CowsEarShooter
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chuckjordan
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Google is your friend...
I would recommend using the Search feature here and Google your topic. Sorry to be straight to the point, but, what grip feels good to me may not for you. The same with the other characteristics.
Also attend an event and afterwards ask if you can try some of the competitors pistols. Nothing beats handing the actual piece. You may also want to attend a Std pistol event as many of the rimfires are similar to their CF counterparts (ie Morini CM22M RF vs. CM32M).
Best of luck on your selection.
Also attend an event and afterwards ask if you can try some of the competitors pistols. Nothing beats handing the actual piece. You may also want to attend a Std pistol event as many of the rimfires are similar to their CF counterparts (ie Morini CM22M RF vs. CM32M).
Best of luck on your selection.
Hammerli or Walther
I am shooting a Walther SSP and a GSP Expert prior acquiring the SSP. Now I am using the GSP expert for Center fire competition only but the ammo is expensive.
In our shooting range there are a number of shooters using Hammerli 208/s, SP20 and 280 so perhaps I can provide some comments on these pistols.
First thing all of these will shoot better than the shooter. the 208/s is a straight forward competition pistol. there is a lot of room for the shooter to custom for their own preferences. It is simple to maintain like a S & W mod 41. The potential advantage of a longer barrel is also an advantage comparing to other models.
The Hammerli SP20 or 280 are both pistols of a new principle, using designs and other technology to tame recoil instead of using pure weight of the piece.
Their bore line is located lower to the frame to lessen upward flipping. Using of materials like alloy or polymar instead of steel makes the weight lighter. magazine located in front of the trigger means the center of gravity of the piece also moves forward. As compare to the 208/s where the CG is at the back and in order to have a good balance, using of weights is almost essential.
OK, this all sounds nothing but if you are shooting the standard fire in the rapid fire mode, (5 shoots in 10 secs), you can then know how importance it is if the pistol has less flipping.
However, all of these Hammerli pistols have one common problem, since the closing of the Hammerli company in Switzerland and been changing hands in the past several years, spare parts of these old pistols are getting difficult to find. all the 3 Hammerlis are categorized as discontinued items.
The GSP Expert has the same design as the 280 and SP20. However, it is a direct descendant of of GSP, using a steel frame and the two changes are the location of the sights and using a barrel with an internal weight. The coloring and the cutting on the barrel are totally cosmetic and no help in the shooting.
My complain of the GSP is it is heavy at the front, if you are shooting for practice with dry firing, you will gradually feel that the barrel is dropping while you are aiming even for .22 l.r. However, this is good for center fire shooting. I think the good point of the GSP is also its defect. It is a pistol for both ,22 l.r. (standard pistol) and .32 S & W (center fire) but like a modern SUV, you can drive in urban and cross country but not good for both.
Of course the good thing about the GSP/Expert is it is still a pistol under production and you can have almost everything fro mthe factory. I can guarantee you that the Walther GSP is one of the easiest pistol to maintain. The upper frame can be removed by turning one lever. The barrel can be dismounted by loosening one screw. The bolt, recoil spring can all be dissembled esily, even the trigger movement is a moduler design and can be switch between different pull weights.
However, if you are really serious on shooting for the best, I can say the SSP is an even better pistol than the GSP. it uses a longer barrel so that potentially it should shoot tighter.
the design of a lower bore line, an internal buffer system all make the SSP very easy to shoot a good score.
If possible, try to test fire some of these pistols and feet for yourself, I believe that is more important than any comments.
In our shooting range there are a number of shooters using Hammerli 208/s, SP20 and 280 so perhaps I can provide some comments on these pistols.
First thing all of these will shoot better than the shooter. the 208/s is a straight forward competition pistol. there is a lot of room for the shooter to custom for their own preferences. It is simple to maintain like a S & W mod 41. The potential advantage of a longer barrel is also an advantage comparing to other models.
The Hammerli SP20 or 280 are both pistols of a new principle, using designs and other technology to tame recoil instead of using pure weight of the piece.
Their bore line is located lower to the frame to lessen upward flipping. Using of materials like alloy or polymar instead of steel makes the weight lighter. magazine located in front of the trigger means the center of gravity of the piece also moves forward. As compare to the 208/s where the CG is at the back and in order to have a good balance, using of weights is almost essential.
OK, this all sounds nothing but if you are shooting the standard fire in the rapid fire mode, (5 shoots in 10 secs), you can then know how importance it is if the pistol has less flipping.
However, all of these Hammerli pistols have one common problem, since the closing of the Hammerli company in Switzerland and been changing hands in the past several years, spare parts of these old pistols are getting difficult to find. all the 3 Hammerlis are categorized as discontinued items.
The GSP Expert has the same design as the 280 and SP20. However, it is a direct descendant of of GSP, using a steel frame and the two changes are the location of the sights and using a barrel with an internal weight. The coloring and the cutting on the barrel are totally cosmetic and no help in the shooting.
My complain of the GSP is it is heavy at the front, if you are shooting for practice with dry firing, you will gradually feel that the barrel is dropping while you are aiming even for .22 l.r. However, this is good for center fire shooting. I think the good point of the GSP is also its defect. It is a pistol for both ,22 l.r. (standard pistol) and .32 S & W (center fire) but like a modern SUV, you can drive in urban and cross country but not good for both.
Of course the good thing about the GSP/Expert is it is still a pistol under production and you can have almost everything fro mthe factory. I can guarantee you that the Walther GSP is one of the easiest pistol to maintain. The upper frame can be removed by turning one lever. The barrel can be dismounted by loosening one screw. The bolt, recoil spring can all be dissembled esily, even the trigger movement is a moduler design and can be switch between different pull weights.
However, if you are really serious on shooting for the best, I can say the SSP is an even better pistol than the GSP. it uses a longer barrel so that potentially it should shoot tighter.
the design of a lower bore line, an internal buffer system all make the SSP very easy to shoot a good score.
If possible, try to test fire some of these pistols and feet for yourself, I believe that is more important than any comments.
Searching for the perfect auto bullet chucker.....
Start with current production (meaning parts available and support)....
... that leaves out the P240, 280 and Unique.
... add nearly impossible parts, add FAS, Tesro and Benalli.
... still working on it, Match Gun.
Leaving in .32 SW the Walther GSP, Hammerli SP20 RRS and Pardini.
Choose your pistol ?
My new one is the SP20 RRS.
25 m load sorted, still working on a good 50yd load.
Start with current production (meaning parts available and support)....
... that leaves out the P240, 280 and Unique.
... add nearly impossible parts, add FAS, Tesro and Benalli.
... still working on it, Match Gun.
Leaving in .32 SW the Walther GSP, Hammerli SP20 RRS and Pardini.
Choose your pistol ?
My new one is the SP20 RRS.
25 m load sorted, still working on a good 50yd load.
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CowsEarShooter
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:48 pm
- Location: Clarksville, TN
Thank you for your respective insights. I have looked around on the normal resources a bit (web, forums, etc.) and run into the issue of brand loyalty. It's nice to have some pragmatic advice.
I am meant to understand that there are some issues with WC stability at 50 yards inherent to the pistols as fired offhand, though not as much from the bench. Further, I have read that some companies make aftermarket barrel assemblies which help remedy this. Is that still the case? I have not seen any mention of it on their websites.
My experience with 38 WC was that the bullets tended to yaw at 50 yards, but would not "fall apart" entirely and still could produce respectable groups. Off the bench and bags, there was no such problem--thus it was mostly a follow through issue, or at least certainly shooter induced. I assume it is the same for 32 WC.
Is there any significant advantage/disadvantage known between 32 and 38 WC? Recoil is the obvious advantage in the case of the 32...does it give much of that back in other areas?
Much of the advice centers on support, reliability, and repair parts. Is there something I should know about these gucci guns in general that makes them delicate or significantly less durable on the firing line?
Seems like the signs point to the GSP/SSP/GSP Expert, the SP20-RRS, and the Pardini. Anyone willing to advocate for a classic model which exhibits character and characteristics better than these three?
Thanks.
I am meant to understand that there are some issues with WC stability at 50 yards inherent to the pistols as fired offhand, though not as much from the bench. Further, I have read that some companies make aftermarket barrel assemblies which help remedy this. Is that still the case? I have not seen any mention of it on their websites.
My experience with 38 WC was that the bullets tended to yaw at 50 yards, but would not "fall apart" entirely and still could produce respectable groups. Off the bench and bags, there was no such problem--thus it was mostly a follow through issue, or at least certainly shooter induced. I assume it is the same for 32 WC.
Is there any significant advantage/disadvantage known between 32 and 38 WC? Recoil is the obvious advantage in the case of the 32...does it give much of that back in other areas?
Much of the advice centers on support, reliability, and repair parts. Is there something I should know about these gucci guns in general that makes them delicate or significantly less durable on the firing line?
Seems like the signs point to the GSP/SSP/GSP Expert, the SP20-RRS, and the Pardini. Anyone willing to advocate for a classic model which exhibits character and characteristics better than these three?
Thanks.
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CowsEarShooter
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:48 pm
- Location: Clarksville, TN
I shoot a revolver for the CF/45 phase of 2700s at this point. I had sold my 586 recently but may work to acquire a better revolver to replace it. Thanks for the insight--rapid fire as fired in ISSF is pretty slow as I understand it and I had not considered that recoil would not represent an issue.
Are dot sights authorized for ISSF? My recollection is no, but I see a lot of Euro guns with dot sights.
Are the issues between 38 and 32 comparable with regard to 50 yard shooting or is the whole stability issue more in the 32 camp?
Are dot sights authorized for ISSF? My recollection is no, but I see a lot of Euro guns with dot sights.
Are the issues between 38 and 32 comparable with regard to 50 yard shooting or is the whole stability issue more in the 32 camp?