My question is directed to ascertaining the current most scientifically based research on the breathing/shot release cycle for SB rifle.
Upon careful reading of A.A. Yur'yev's book on shooting (admittedly an old book, but which has held up well), he states that recharging the oxygen in the blood stream demands that you shoot on an inhalation, hold and shot release cycle. Similarly, a former sb US Olympian team member (mid 70's era) who was giving me coaching advice said that his former US Team coaches always recommended a "top up shot release", ie. inhale/hold/shoot pattern to maximize blood oxygen. The theory being that eyesight acuity was among the first things to go in an oxygen deficit. (I absolutely buy into the oxygen/acuity eqaution part).
The Ways Of The Rifle is relatively silent on the subject, with a reference to 'not playing games with lung air volume' to adjust NPA. (I buy into that too, as far as the statement goes). I guess they kind of expect you already know the answer to that question.
The current book by Fenning advocates a exhale and shoot cycle after oxygenating the blood from inhalation. Similarly, an old previous thread on this site made a link to Wiki on the subject, and advocated exhale, hold and shoot, because the act of breath holding after inhaling accelerated the heart/pulse rate due to a autonomic brain command for air relative to the other way around.
Personally, I find in prone that the exhale to a neutral 'feel' of just above empty, hold and shoot cycle is most stable. What I would really like to know is, is the divergence of the above opinions an evolution of the understanding of the physiology of the optimum shot release cycle, and what is the current science based training recommending on this subject? Was there a tipping point in the change in theory?
Evolution of the shot release breathing cycle?
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headwizard
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I was always taught (back in the 70's) to shoot prone with the lungs comfortably empty too - and for the same reasons, relaxation of the chest muscles and using the autonomic (vagus) reflex to slow the heart rate for a few seconds.
I'll have to have a look at my copy of Yur'Yev again...
I can't even imagine shooting prone on the inhale.
K.
I'll have to have a look at my copy of Yur'Yev again...
I can't even imagine shooting prone on the inhale.
K.
KennyB, I hope I wasn't cherry picking out of context when I quoted Yur'yev. It was 5 years since I read him cover to cover. Yesterday someone gave me a new (old) copy and last night I was looking up the breathing issue specifically, and in the chapter titled "Breathing" he pretty much delineated a inhale/hold/shoot pattern..
It was after getting what appeared to be contradictory advice that I started to seek out what the front line competition training regimens are recommending, and what is the science behind it.
I did try an experiment of inhale,hold, shoot in prone, and yeah.. it's a bit goofy. For one, the target approach is opposite.
Is the understanding of the vagus response a relatively new development?
It was after getting what appeared to be contradictory advice that I started to seek out what the front line competition training regimens are recommending, and what is the science behind it.
I did try an experiment of inhale,hold, shoot in prone, and yeah.. it's a bit goofy. For one, the target approach is opposite.
Is the understanding of the vagus response a relatively new development?
In the 50's and 60's we were all taught the "take three breaths and exhale half the last one" technique . The problems comes with two things: how do you know if it is half, or 51%, or 48.2%, etc; tension in the back and chest muscles from using them to hold "half" the breath.
Using the natural respiratory pause we get to a very close approximation of the same air volume every time, because this is how we naturally breath; also we have relaxed the muscles of the upper core allowing more relaxation and less use of oxygen for those muscles (thus more for the brain and eyes).
Try holding your breath, both ways, while watching a timer and see if you don't notice the chest muscles and "need" to breath more with the "half" breath method. That winds up being another mental distraction to getting the shot off.
Using the natural respiratory pause we get to a very close approximation of the same air volume every time, because this is how we naturally breath; also we have relaxed the muscles of the upper core allowing more relaxation and less use of oxygen for those muscles (thus more for the brain and eyes).
Try holding your breath, both ways, while watching a timer and see if you don't notice the chest muscles and "need" to breath more with the "half" breath method. That winds up being another mental distraction to getting the shot off.
Breathing
Funny you should mention it. I too have been brought up on the shooting on the "comfortably empty" breathing sycle.
A few years ago I noticed a NZ shooter doing the breath in and hold technique. He is the only one I have EVER seen of those I have watched. And i have watched all the way to World Cups and Paralympics. I was very intrigued and asked him about it afterwards. He had spent time with the Russians and they had taught him the technique.
He is a very good shot. Regularly wins indoor championships and regularly makes the NZ indoor team.
I have to say though, he has tried 50m shooting and frankly, does not do at all well. And the reason I cannot help but infer is that holding your breath works for only about 20 to 25 shots. After that it seems to become quite a chore and fatigue may creep in.
IMHO there is no doubt that "relaxed out and empty" is my preferred method of shooting. And is what I have always trained my shooters. And I have to add, seemed to work all the way to Paralympic Gold.
I will be interested in others opinion........
Edit: Re standing and holding breath. That seems to be an accepted technique for some quite reasonable shooters. I too thought that the cahp mentioned above may have been getting mixed messages about holding your breath while standing and then someone transferring this technique to prone. Correectly (?) or otherwise.
A few years ago I noticed a NZ shooter doing the breath in and hold technique. He is the only one I have EVER seen of those I have watched. And i have watched all the way to World Cups and Paralympics. I was very intrigued and asked him about it afterwards. He had spent time with the Russians and they had taught him the technique.
He is a very good shot. Regularly wins indoor championships and regularly makes the NZ indoor team.
I have to say though, he has tried 50m shooting and frankly, does not do at all well. And the reason I cannot help but infer is that holding your breath works for only about 20 to 25 shots. After that it seems to become quite a chore and fatigue may creep in.
IMHO there is no doubt that "relaxed out and empty" is my preferred method of shooting. And is what I have always trained my shooters. And I have to add, seemed to work all the way to Paralympic Gold.
I will be interested in others opinion........
Edit: Re standing and holding breath. That seems to be an accepted technique for some quite reasonable shooters. I too thought that the cahp mentioned above may have been getting mixed messages about holding your breath while standing and then someone transferring this technique to prone. Correectly (?) or otherwise.
I checked Yur'yev, and he does mention the Vagus nerve, but gives no real explanation (other than acknowledging its existence), or indication that he understood the inter-connectivity of it to the cardiovascular autonomic demand for oxygen.
I understand that the demands of shooting are in many ways unique to the sport, the need for consistent repeatability, decisiveness, bone supported structure to eliminate fatigue, etc. But.., as a swimmer, some of the ideas of breathing technique feel counter intuitive. By hyperventilating, taking a deep breath and holding, or slowly exhaling while swimming underwater, I can swim the entire length of a 75 yd. pool underwater. The other way around, hyperventilate, exhale, dive and swim, I can not even come close. It would seem that the vagus response either has 'short circuits', or there are other things going on that I do not understand or am not factoring in.
I have continuously wished for a shooting cardiologist, and or a shooting opthamologist to weight in on these forums, to get at the root of the biology/physiology of our shooting technique but maybe that is like wishing for a shooting unicorn :).
I understand that the demands of shooting are in many ways unique to the sport, the need for consistent repeatability, decisiveness, bone supported structure to eliminate fatigue, etc. But.., as a swimmer, some of the ideas of breathing technique feel counter intuitive. By hyperventilating, taking a deep breath and holding, or slowly exhaling while swimming underwater, I can swim the entire length of a 75 yd. pool underwater. The other way around, hyperventilate, exhale, dive and swim, I can not even come close. It would seem that the vagus response either has 'short circuits', or there are other things going on that I do not understand or am not factoring in.
I have continuously wished for a shooting cardiologist, and or a shooting opthamologist to weight in on these forums, to get at the root of the biology/physiology of our shooting technique but maybe that is like wishing for a shooting unicorn :).
While not scientific, the instructor at a shooting clinic I attended advocated taking a full breath, naturally expelling the breath (not necessarily the full breath), and taking the shot as soon as possible upon natural expiration of the breath. He said if you breath in and hold your breath while making your shot there can be a tendency to release the breath just as you are taking the shot which will change your point of aim.
xnoncents:
I think you are getting a little mislead with your comparison between oxygen and muscle tension. Yes, holding a breath will give you more oxygen to use for a longer time. But the problem will then be that your muscles are more tense since you have to push the chest out (and the diaphragm down) . The tension will in turn affect your hold which might affect your holding time (making the shot process longer since it is less stable). The heart rate also goes up as previous mentioned. So a bigger air volume in the chest might lead to longer, less stable aiming and therefore work in the opposite direction as intended.
Overall, actual oxygen consumption is not as big of a problem as muscle tension is, and therefore the latter has to be dealt with first. If you like, one way of bringing in more oxygen is by saturating the blood by taking several deep breaths (not hyperventilate) and in turn add a few seconds of aiming. And by doing that you will use a bigger portion of the lungs and therefore have a little more fresh air to use (I assume you know we don't use all the lung volume regularly and that they are never completely empty -there will always be around 1,5L left)
I think you are getting a little mislead with your comparison between oxygen and muscle tension. Yes, holding a breath will give you more oxygen to use for a longer time. But the problem will then be that your muscles are more tense since you have to push the chest out (and the diaphragm down) . The tension will in turn affect your hold which might affect your holding time (making the shot process longer since it is less stable). The heart rate also goes up as previous mentioned. So a bigger air volume in the chest might lead to longer, less stable aiming and therefore work in the opposite direction as intended.
Overall, actual oxygen consumption is not as big of a problem as muscle tension is, and therefore the latter has to be dealt with first. If you like, one way of bringing in more oxygen is by saturating the blood by taking several deep breaths (not hyperventilate) and in turn add a few seconds of aiming. And by doing that you will use a bigger portion of the lungs and therefore have a little more fresh air to use (I assume you know we don't use all the lung volume regularly and that they are never completely empty -there will always be around 1,5L left)
First, thanks to all for their candid and considered contributions to the knowledge base. The collective brain trust that this site represents is invaluable and irreplaceable. This is particularly so for people like myself who do not have reliable access to high level coaching.
RossM, before I had any coaching, or the Ways Of The Rifle book, (I had Yur'yev's book first) I did try the system the Russian trained shooter used. I too had initially seductive but ultimately unsustainable results. As a result of 30 years of continuous weight training my muscleclature had become quite developed. I (very) wrongly reasoned that in the inhale cycle I could freeze my body into a statue. This did lead to really good 50m standing shooting for a short series, however the tension I was creating was not uniform, released itself in unpredictable ways, and as my body tired I too found performance very quickly degraded. It was not until I started to digest the Maik Eckhardt book that the pitfalls of my beginner 'experiment' were both explained and put to an end.
EJ, in essence I came to a equivalent conclusion as you, and so have worked to come to a settled and neutral position, and shooting improved dramatically. Really where I am going with my inquiry is three fold: To either reconcile the seeming opposite opinions, (and perhaps eliminate that particular aspect of the Yur'yev approach as misguided), and to figure out, if it is to be forever shelved, were there any actual performance based studies done on this to eliminate it as a viable technique (more of a 'history of shooting evolution' question, hence the title of my OP), and lastly the theory and science behind the current prevailing and predominate technique (which we are well on the way to establishing).
So, the prevailing SB coaching and training seems to be, breath to oxygenate, exhale until neutral or comfortably empty, aim, shoot. Any thoughts on if the AMU and USA Shooting trainers have a similar protocol, and is it uniform for the various positions?
RossM, before I had any coaching, or the Ways Of The Rifle book, (I had Yur'yev's book first) I did try the system the Russian trained shooter used. I too had initially seductive but ultimately unsustainable results. As a result of 30 years of continuous weight training my muscleclature had become quite developed. I (very) wrongly reasoned that in the inhale cycle I could freeze my body into a statue. This did lead to really good 50m standing shooting for a short series, however the tension I was creating was not uniform, released itself in unpredictable ways, and as my body tired I too found performance very quickly degraded. It was not until I started to digest the Maik Eckhardt book that the pitfalls of my beginner 'experiment' were both explained and put to an end.
EJ, in essence I came to a equivalent conclusion as you, and so have worked to come to a settled and neutral position, and shooting improved dramatically. Really where I am going with my inquiry is three fold: To either reconcile the seeming opposite opinions, (and perhaps eliminate that particular aspect of the Yur'yev approach as misguided), and to figure out, if it is to be forever shelved, were there any actual performance based studies done on this to eliminate it as a viable technique (more of a 'history of shooting evolution' question, hence the title of my OP), and lastly the theory and science behind the current prevailing and predominate technique (which we are well on the way to establishing).
So, the prevailing SB coaching and training seems to be, breath to oxygenate, exhale until neutral or comfortably empty, aim, shoot. Any thoughts on if the AMU and USA Shooting trainers have a similar protocol, and is it uniform for the various positions?
One other point worth noting. My experience of military rifle shooting is that it is deeply entrenched in the breath in and hold technique. I suspect when there is lead flying around being relaxed may not be the best idea while trying to shoot. I can't help thinking that 60s and 70s was still well populated with war heroes in our shooting ranks and those techniques took a while to dissipate.
I believe whether you need to breath in and hold or breath out and hold will be significantly affected by your physical conditioning. I also feel that keeping to the 8 second rule means your shot will be taken before any significant loss in vision.
I have spent my entire shooting career breathing out before taking a shot. In taking some breaths sitting here, I feel as though I get my lungs pretty darn close to empty. I don't force any air out, but there isn't much left when I feel relaxed.
That said, I have to get a good 20sec into a hold to start really feeling any ill effects due to lack of oxygen. I feel as though there shouldn't be any ill effects for holding one's breath out for up to 8sec due to the evolution of survival mechanics in one's body. If we had trouble holding our breath out for 8sec running from wild animals trying to kill us, I doubt we would be here now as we are.
As for physical conditioning, I remember in my high school cross country days being able to get two shots off in one breath (not recommended for use on a regular basis, but effective when you have 12 shots and one minute). I don't remember any super ill effects from doing this, but it was pushing me to the limits of what my body can handle and still get 10s on the paper.
Based on this, if you find you have trouble with your vision going while keeping to the 8sec rule, I think you may want to see a doctor.
I have spent my entire shooting career breathing out before taking a shot. In taking some breaths sitting here, I feel as though I get my lungs pretty darn close to empty. I don't force any air out, but there isn't much left when I feel relaxed.
That said, I have to get a good 20sec into a hold to start really feeling any ill effects due to lack of oxygen. I feel as though there shouldn't be any ill effects for holding one's breath out for up to 8sec due to the evolution of survival mechanics in one's body. If we had trouble holding our breath out for 8sec running from wild animals trying to kill us, I doubt we would be here now as we are.
As for physical conditioning, I remember in my high school cross country days being able to get two shots off in one breath (not recommended for use on a regular basis, but effective when you have 12 shots and one minute). I don't remember any super ill effects from doing this, but it was pushing me to the limits of what my body can handle and still get 10s on the paper.
Based on this, if you find you have trouble with your vision going while keeping to the 8sec rule, I think you may want to see a doctor.
I understand his point but it doesn't appear to happen. I.e. there is no tendancy to release the breath, holding it feels natural. If you constantly breath out you will be shooting on the move, i.e. as the sights rise up the target, or you will be muscling the gun down to counter the exhaling raising it. Either way that's not a good way to shoot tens.WRL wrote:While not scientific, the instructor at a shooting clinic I attended advocated taking a full breath, naturally expelling the breath (not necessarily the full breath), and taking the shot as soon as possible upon natural expiration of the breath. He said if you breath in and hold your breath while making your shot there can be a tendency to release the breath just as you are taking the shot which will change your point of aim.
Rob.
Just a small point... shooters shouldn't be aiming. You check your aim is on. It's a check not a movement. Your sights should be on target by your position and if you are having to place them there then something is wrong. This is why having a breathing cycle that is consistent is very important, because changing how much air you have in your lungs changes your NPA, which then often leads to people then thinking about aiming, ie looking for the bull when their NPA has moved off the target.xnoncents wrote:
So, the prevailing SB coaching and training seems to be, breath to oxygenate, exhale until neutral or comfortably empty, aim, shoot.
RobF, thanks for focusing and correcting the nuance of my misstatement.
When everything is working well, my breath goes out, hold, the sights are 'just there', and the bullet is gone, no thinking involved. When it works like that, they are usually deep 10 shots (at least in prone). A very quick and zen like experience. I have tried to follow the Lanny Bassham theory of working so that the response is automatic and in the subconscious. So much easier said than done, but I suspect that is at the essence of what makes the sport such a challenge.
I do think that the act of exhaling not only dissipates tension but it also allows our bodies to 'sink' down into a bone and ligament supported position, especially in standing. The spine sort of feels like it is compressing and settling down the vertebrae and locking. When you think about the function of the diaphragm as an aid and counter muscle to spinal erector muscles it sort of makes sense. This however may not be a long term recipe for spinal health, so I think that's one of the reasons that the jacket (and conditioning) is important.
On a tangent note, it occurred to me after writing the above that if such a thing as a 'Standing Position' only jacket were allowed, than it might be bias constructed to offset the spinal curve lock even more.
I think the fact that our heart rates slows in the exhale cycle may be just a kind of bonus in the stability quest, natural selection was not engineering our bodies for shooting (maybe for better or worse).
When everything is working well, my breath goes out, hold, the sights are 'just there', and the bullet is gone, no thinking involved. When it works like that, they are usually deep 10 shots (at least in prone). A very quick and zen like experience. I have tried to follow the Lanny Bassham theory of working so that the response is automatic and in the subconscious. So much easier said than done, but I suspect that is at the essence of what makes the sport such a challenge.
I do think that the act of exhaling not only dissipates tension but it also allows our bodies to 'sink' down into a bone and ligament supported position, especially in standing. The spine sort of feels like it is compressing and settling down the vertebrae and locking. When you think about the function of the diaphragm as an aid and counter muscle to spinal erector muscles it sort of makes sense. This however may not be a long term recipe for spinal health, so I think that's one of the reasons that the jacket (and conditioning) is important.
On a tangent note, it occurred to me after writing the above that if such a thing as a 'Standing Position' only jacket were allowed, than it might be bias constructed to offset the spinal curve lock even more.
I think the fact that our heart rates slows in the exhale cycle may be just a kind of bonus in the stability quest, natural selection was not engineering our bodies for shooting (maybe for better or worse).