Looking at people's positions through books, and watching vids, as well as some people at my range, it seems most right handed people have to deal with a leftwards cant... last time I was training was my second time shooting prone with sling and jacket with my 1807. I was using the club's sling and no handstop, just the sling *swivel that came with my rifle. When I try to relax, the weight of the rifle pulls the sling even more taught to the point it tries to lever the bottom of the rifle left, rolling it to the right. (Im right handed by the way) I dont have a buttplate, just an adjustable recoil pad that stays wedged into my shoulder through friction. Alot of times I found my right hand having to grip harder keeping the rifle straight. I just knew it wasn't working..
I found a way to counter this, but it involves me putting almost all my weight on my left elbow, with it slightly to the right of the bore centerline. This causes me to wobble left and right alot, and my right elbow almost weightless, causing almost any muscle twitch to sway the rifle....
All in all, I was pretty frustrated not being able to relax and find my zero. At the time I just couldn't articulate the words to describe this problem. Does this problem sound familiar at all??
Beginner prone: rifle keeps wanting to tilt right
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Beginner prone: rifle keeps wanting to tilt right
Last edited by adrianS on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We do need to see a picture, but I wonder if you have the sling very tight and your position very high?
Another possibility is that you have the gun out on the fingers of your left hand instead of in the V between your thumb and fingers.
You should have most of the weight on your left elbow - you'll probably have to lift the right elbow up to load, after all.
Another possibility is that you have the gun out on the fingers of your left hand instead of in the V between your thumb and fingers.
You should have most of the weight on your left elbow - you'll probably have to lift the right elbow up to load, after all.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
While minimalist, the sling swivel you pictured also qualifies as a small handstop.
It has been pointed out that pictures of your hand, to get picky both from the side and the top and frankly of the whole hand/sling/arm/elbow/rifle system will be helpful so from here out this is all conjecture.
You make mention of "gripping" the rifle harder with your hand which kinda says you have your hand like the "this is bad" picture posted by KennyB. Note the "this is good" picture the thumb is not really located where you can get a grip on the rifle.
If you need to grip the rifle to keep your hand from sliding out to the sling swivel then you tend to automatically create a position that is too high and with the rifle out in the palm of the hand rather than over the base of the thumb. Try to have the swivel/handstop located such that the web of the hand presses comfortably up against it so you don't have to worry about gripping anything. This makes it easier to take the weight of the rifle on the pad at the base of the thumb. (like the this is good picture)
If you look at the top prone shooters most have an angle around 35 degrees or so between the ground and the lower part of the left arm. As you tighten the sling the the angle goes up and the swivel/handstop will need to be moved back.
Probably more info than you wanted here. Sorry, got carried away...
Good Luck
'Dude
It has been pointed out that pictures of your hand, to get picky both from the side and the top and frankly of the whole hand/sling/arm/elbow/rifle system will be helpful so from here out this is all conjecture.
You make mention of "gripping" the rifle harder with your hand which kinda says you have your hand like the "this is bad" picture posted by KennyB. Note the "this is good" picture the thumb is not really located where you can get a grip on the rifle.
If you need to grip the rifle to keep your hand from sliding out to the sling swivel then you tend to automatically create a position that is too high and with the rifle out in the palm of the hand rather than over the base of the thumb. Try to have the swivel/handstop located such that the web of the hand presses comfortably up against it so you don't have to worry about gripping anything. This makes it easier to take the weight of the rifle on the pad at the base of the thumb. (like the this is good picture)
If you look at the top prone shooters most have an angle around 35 degrees or so between the ground and the lower part of the left arm. As you tighten the sling the the angle goes up and the swivel/handstop will need to be moved back.
Probably more info than you wanted here. Sorry, got carried away...
Good Luck
'Dude
Proper Cant..??
Hi Adrian,
I had the same exact problem you are describing.
I'm suspecting your stock had the deep fore-end? If so, mine did too (1810 stock). Very good, but slightly less suitable for prone shooting. I discovered I was trying to have the handstop out too far. When I shortened it and made the sling adjustments with it the gun didn't want to cant away from my head so much. But it was some other adjustments that solved the handstop distance.
I first started by setting the butt-length to the maximum length I could comfortably stand and still be able to load the rifle.
Second, I adjusted the handstop that provided a comfortable elevation on the target. I did this without the sling.
Third, I started playing with sling tension.
By doing all this I found a comfortale tightness in the shoulder slot that kept the rifle from canting away.
I do think the deep belly stocks tend to have a low center of gravity, thus somewhat making them want to self-level. Another aspect of the deep belly stock might be the distance the handstop attachment is from the center of the bore is greater, than the new free rifle stock that have very shallow fore-ends. That greater distance would create more torque, thus again twisting the the rifle away from you. A good tight fit in the shoulder helps eliminate this.
You mentioned your "right hand" having to grip and put it where you wanted the cant to be. That's not good and tells me you don't have the rifle tight in the slot in the shoulder that points at your jaw bone to your armpit. Your trigger hand should do nothing but initally place the rifle in the shoulder slot, and from there on just hold the grip to pull the trigger. If you have it all just right, When you hve your NPA setup...you should be able to remove your trigger hand from the rifle and still be on the bull.
Try those three steps on setting up the rifle.
Hope you get it fixed.
Oh by the way, "dude" help me fix a few issues I've had that made all the difference. It is critical to get the cant comfortable and consistent. In your situation, but sounds very similar to mine....I think it has to do more with the position of the rifle in the shoulder and how tight it is. Maybe "dude" will jump in and reply to possibly where I was going. He's much more of an accomplished shooter than I!
Tenring
I had the same exact problem you are describing.
I'm suspecting your stock had the deep fore-end? If so, mine did too (1810 stock). Very good, but slightly less suitable for prone shooting. I discovered I was trying to have the handstop out too far. When I shortened it and made the sling adjustments with it the gun didn't want to cant away from my head so much. But it was some other adjustments that solved the handstop distance.
I first started by setting the butt-length to the maximum length I could comfortably stand and still be able to load the rifle.
Second, I adjusted the handstop that provided a comfortable elevation on the target. I did this without the sling.
Third, I started playing with sling tension.
By doing all this I found a comfortale tightness in the shoulder slot that kept the rifle from canting away.
I do think the deep belly stocks tend to have a low center of gravity, thus somewhat making them want to self-level. Another aspect of the deep belly stock might be the distance the handstop attachment is from the center of the bore is greater, than the new free rifle stock that have very shallow fore-ends. That greater distance would create more torque, thus again twisting the the rifle away from you. A good tight fit in the shoulder helps eliminate this.
You mentioned your "right hand" having to grip and put it where you wanted the cant to be. That's not good and tells me you don't have the rifle tight in the slot in the shoulder that points at your jaw bone to your armpit. Your trigger hand should do nothing but initally place the rifle in the shoulder slot, and from there on just hold the grip to pull the trigger. If you have it all just right, When you hve your NPA setup...you should be able to remove your trigger hand from the rifle and still be on the bull.
Try those three steps on setting up the rifle.
Hope you get it fixed.
Oh by the way, "dude" help me fix a few issues I've had that made all the difference. It is critical to get the cant comfortable and consistent. In your situation, but sounds very similar to mine....I think it has to do more with the position of the rifle in the shoulder and how tight it is. Maybe "dude" will jump in and reply to possibly where I was going. He's much more of an accomplished shooter than I!
Tenring
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
I snapped some pictures of myself.. Sorry for the bad quality pictures. I wish I could have gotten a higher and more straight down shot of me in position. But I hope theyre somewhat telling. I can see now that I definitely need to work on my left hand since Im doing what KennyB's "this is bad" picture is doing. Also note it looks like my left hand is gripping the stock but there's no pressure at all. Anyways that'll be gone when I fix the hold.
The picture doesnt really show it as well as I had hoped, (maybe its the camera angle) but when I let go of the grip and cheekweld the rifle tilts right.
Is it possible also that Im holding the rifle too parallel to my torso and that it should be angled left more?
I snapped some pictures of myself.. Sorry for the bad quality pictures. I wish I could have gotten a higher and more straight down shot of me in position. But I hope theyre somewhat telling. I can see now that I definitely need to work on my left hand since Im doing what KennyB's "this is bad" picture is doing. Also note it looks like my left hand is gripping the stock but there's no pressure at all. Anyways that'll be gone when I fix the hold.
The picture doesnt really show it as well as I had hoped, (maybe its the camera angle) but when I let go of the grip and cheekweld the rifle tilts right.
Is it possible also that Im holding the rifle too parallel to my torso and that it should be angled left more?
I suspect you're getting some pain on the left side of your left wrist too...
The handstop might not be helping you.
My second suggestion which would help you get the rifle on to the base of the thumb is to try and get the sling to cross your wrist lower down.
Like this:
It might not be possible with the handstop you are using as the sling attaches very close to the rifle with the effect that the sling wants to ride up higher on the wrist and pull he left hand out of position.
It might also be a consequence of your position being a bit on the high side...
Give it a try anyway.
Regards,
Ken.
The handstop might not be helping you.
My second suggestion which would help you get the rifle on to the base of the thumb is to try and get the sling to cross your wrist lower down.
Like this:
It might not be possible with the handstop you are using as the sling attaches very close to the rifle with the effect that the sling wants to ride up higher on the wrist and pull he left hand out of position.
It might also be a consequence of your position being a bit on the high side...
Give it a try anyway.
Regards,
Ken.
Adrian,
as Ken noted your left hand isn't straight under the rifle. If you straighten your wrist the will move the bulk of the rifle (i.e the barrel line) over the base of your hand rather than on the palm where it is in the photos.
To do this you may need to make some other changes.
From the photos the butt is sitting almost on the shoulder muscle, rather than in the pocket around the collar bone as is more normal. This may unsettle the butt, especially as you reload.
Ken noted that your position is rather high. Your back and shoulders are also twisted. I think this is caused by your sling being too short for the handstop-butt distance, so it is pushing your right shoulder too far back (and also preventing the butt being seated properly). A suggestion would be to either make your sling longer, to accomodate the handstop position (and lowering the rifle), or moving the handstop nearer the triggerguard (maintaining current rifle height).
Tim
as Ken noted your left hand isn't straight under the rifle. If you straighten your wrist the will move the bulk of the rifle (i.e the barrel line) over the base of your hand rather than on the palm where it is in the photos.
To do this you may need to make some other changes.
From the photos the butt is sitting almost on the shoulder muscle, rather than in the pocket around the collar bone as is more normal. This may unsettle the butt, especially as you reload.
Ken noted that your position is rather high. Your back and shoulders are also twisted. I think this is caused by your sling being too short for the handstop-butt distance, so it is pushing your right shoulder too far back (and also preventing the butt being seated properly). A suggestion would be to either make your sling longer, to accomodate the handstop position (and lowering the rifle), or moving the handstop nearer the triggerguard (maintaining current rifle height).
Tim
Last edited by Tim S on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The first thing I see is that your right shoulder is pushed way back so your spine is kind of bent. This is indicative of the handstop being too far forward.
Ideally the left leg is pretty straight and a line extended from the left leg will be parallel to the spine which is also straight, then the shoulders form a pretty square T at the top of the spine.
Now, start by getting the wrist under the rifle, it will probably help to lengthen the sling. The sling could also be lowered on your arm an inch or two. Most shooter prefer a high sling position but not wedged up into the armpit as yours just about is.
After you have let the sling out some and have the meat at the base of the thumb under the rifle have another picture taken from the rear or from above. If your shoulders are still not square or you spine still looks like a big comma then it is time to move the handstop back on the rail. Use about one of the Anschutz forend rail index marks per trial and shoot a target or two at each setting to really let it settle in.
Moving the handstop back will also help with being able to pull the butt of the rifle in closer to the neck.
Finally, unless you shoot in some very unusual light conditions take the rubber eye cup off the rear sight. They look kind of neat but generally just get in the way and a cause other problems.
Good Luck
'Dude
Ideally the left leg is pretty straight and a line extended from the left leg will be parallel to the spine which is also straight, then the shoulders form a pretty square T at the top of the spine.
Now, start by getting the wrist under the rifle, it will probably help to lengthen the sling. The sling could also be lowered on your arm an inch or two. Most shooter prefer a high sling position but not wedged up into the armpit as yours just about is.
After you have let the sling out some and have the meat at the base of the thumb under the rifle have another picture taken from the rear or from above. If your shoulders are still not square or you spine still looks like a big comma then it is time to move the handstop back on the rail. Use about one of the Anschutz forend rail index marks per trial and shoot a target or two at each setting to really let it settle in.
Moving the handstop back will also help with being able to pull the butt of the rifle in closer to the neck.
Finally, unless you shoot in some very unusual light conditions take the rubber eye cup off the rear sight. They look kind of neat but generally just get in the way and a cause other problems.
Good Luck
'Dude
Thanks guys, Im listening. Im trying out what you guys are all suggesting and re referencing Ways of the Rifle. All the images and book descriptions make so much more sense when Im in my coat with my rifle and trying them out as I read through. So far right now, Ive pushed the handstop forward a bit, by alot actually- 3cm. Sling is loosened by 2 notches, my hip is flat, and my shoulders a bit more parallel. The right tilt is gone! And the straightening of the wrist actually feels alot more comfortable. When I started with the sling, I knew I had to expect pain- but I didnt realize it didn't have to be that excessive! All in all, it was an overall change in my form that I had to make. You guys were all correct. Anyways, Im going to fiddle around some more and take more pics later.
I think I moved the handstop even further forward thinking it would solve the "too high" issue, when in actuality the lengthening of the sling would make me lay flatter as well as push the rifle forwards a bit so as not to push my right shoulder so far back... Am I getting this right?justadude wrote:The first thing I see is that your right shoulder is pushed way back so your spine is kind of bent. This is indicative of the handstop being too far forward.
Here's how I think it works:
The length of the sling controls the angle your forearm makes to the floor - this shouldn't be less than 30 degrees.
Lengthening the sling will reduce this angle and bring you lower.
Too low can be bad as it requires you to crank your neck back at an awkward angle to get your head behind the sights.
You'll now find that the rifle now is loose in the shoulder and to get it back in place you need to slide the handstop forward (effectively sliding the whole rifle backwards).
Alternatively you can extend the butt but this has to be the right length to allow you to operate the trigger comfortably and load the rifle without struggling.
The buttplate should be closer to the neck - throwing your RIGHT elbow further forward and out would create a nice pocket for the butt to sit in and flatten your shoulders. (Personal preference - will angle your position more). Now you might have to move the handstop BACK a bit....
There should be some weight on the right elbow.
You're trying to create a solid tripod using Left elbow, Right elbow and Abdomen.
The left arm provides vertical stability, the right arm provides horizontal stability.
I like to have good contact between the heel of my RIGHT hand and the pistol grip to control any sideways movement.
You're lucky not to have an adjustable buttplate - you could fiddle with that for months.....
Then you may well have to adjust the cheekpiece so that your head rests comfortably on the stock while your eye is directly behind the sight.
It can be a long and tedious process to build a position - even when you (think) you know what you're doing.
I recently shot a friend's rifle which I had to set up from scratch and it took a couple of hours before I was comfortable. I still preferred mine though - I've been refining that for years.
Probably too much information.
Small steps.
K.
The length of the sling controls the angle your forearm makes to the floor - this shouldn't be less than 30 degrees.
Lengthening the sling will reduce this angle and bring you lower.
Too low can be bad as it requires you to crank your neck back at an awkward angle to get your head behind the sights.
You'll now find that the rifle now is loose in the shoulder and to get it back in place you need to slide the handstop forward (effectively sliding the whole rifle backwards).
Alternatively you can extend the butt but this has to be the right length to allow you to operate the trigger comfortably and load the rifle without struggling.
The buttplate should be closer to the neck - throwing your RIGHT elbow further forward and out would create a nice pocket for the butt to sit in and flatten your shoulders. (Personal preference - will angle your position more). Now you might have to move the handstop BACK a bit....
There should be some weight on the right elbow.
You're trying to create a solid tripod using Left elbow, Right elbow and Abdomen.
The left arm provides vertical stability, the right arm provides horizontal stability.
I like to have good contact between the heel of my RIGHT hand and the pistol grip to control any sideways movement.
You're lucky not to have an adjustable buttplate - you could fiddle with that for months.....
Then you may well have to adjust the cheekpiece so that your head rests comfortably on the stock while your eye is directly behind the sight.
It can be a long and tedious process to build a position - even when you (think) you know what you're doing.
I recently shot a friend's rifle which I had to set up from scratch and it took a couple of hours before I was comfortable. I still preferred mine though - I've been refining that for years.
Probably too much information.
Small steps.
K.
adrian,
I implied it and KennyB has said it one way. The location of the handstop and length of the sling are a coupled system so you often need to work them together. You are correct, as the sling lengthened it is entirely possible the handstop moved forward. The issue I was looking at was how far back your shoulder was being pushed, along with how far out on the shoulder the buttplate was resting. If you were not also working the sling then the handstop would need to move back on the rifle.
The point where the left hand meets the stock is the anchor point where the rifle is fixed to the body. That point, often not given enough consideration, should be worked and managed carefully to get the rifle snug into the body and comfortable in the shoulder.
Oh, yeah, prone, it can be a little uncomfortable but should not be painful.
'Dude
I implied it and KennyB has said it one way. The location of the handstop and length of the sling are a coupled system so you often need to work them together. You are correct, as the sling lengthened it is entirely possible the handstop moved forward. The issue I was looking at was how far back your shoulder was being pushed, along with how far out on the shoulder the buttplate was resting. If you were not also working the sling then the handstop would need to move back on the rifle.
The point where the left hand meets the stock is the anchor point where the rifle is fixed to the body. That point, often not given enough consideration, should be worked and managed carefully to get the rifle snug into the body and comfortable in the shoulder.
Oh, yeah, prone, it can be a little uncomfortable but should not be painful.
'Dude
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Globesmasher17
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:35 pm
- Location: Canada
Hey Adrian:
I can recommend sbrmike's suggestion to use the Anschutz 4751 handstop. I used to have the little one like you have pictured (the 6225) - the one that came with the original stock - and it pushed undue pressure on my hand. The 4751 handstop is quite a nice one, good ergonomics and sells at a reasonable price (won't break the piggy bank). It made a lot of difference to me. I believe you will notice quite a difference too with a 4751. The 4751 pivots as well so you will be able to employ KennyB's hand positioning much easier with it.
As a right handed shooter I experienced the same problems you are having when I started ... the rifle wanted to "fall" or tilt out to the right. Using many suggestions here on the forum I adjusted my hand position down the length of the stock (hand stop placement), used KennyB's suggestion as to where and how to place the left hand (thumb pad so to speak) and also gradually adjusted the sling tension. These all helped to gradually remove the "tilt to the right hand side". Also, turning the sling into a "single thickness" sling helped too (but that is another thread on here altogether).
One thing that made a big change was also adjusting and tilting the butt hook assembly. I use the Anschutz 4765 hook but plate on a 2213-8300 butt plate carrier. It can be manipulated in quite a few directions and degrees of cant/tilt. This took many months but I eventually found a setting that helps keep the butt firmly placed into the shoulder and that also helps to counteract that "tilting or falling" feeling out to the right.
Hunting for and finding that prone position that works for you will take quite a long time as you tweak and adjust and try things to fix issues. I guess that is the part of the process/journey that "IS" smallbore match rifle shooting. Furthermore, getting the rifle to "fit like a glove" is also part of the greater challenge.
Now I don't want to compete with sbrmike, but if I ever get my hands on a used 2213 stock, I will have a walnut 1912 stock up for cheap sale!!! Sounds like he has a really good trade proposal for you though. GET THAT 4751 HANDSTOP!!!!
I can recommend sbrmike's suggestion to use the Anschutz 4751 handstop. I used to have the little one like you have pictured (the 6225) - the one that came with the original stock - and it pushed undue pressure on my hand. The 4751 handstop is quite a nice one, good ergonomics and sells at a reasonable price (won't break the piggy bank). It made a lot of difference to me. I believe you will notice quite a difference too with a 4751. The 4751 pivots as well so you will be able to employ KennyB's hand positioning much easier with it.
As a right handed shooter I experienced the same problems you are having when I started ... the rifle wanted to "fall" or tilt out to the right. Using many suggestions here on the forum I adjusted my hand position down the length of the stock (hand stop placement), used KennyB's suggestion as to where and how to place the left hand (thumb pad so to speak) and also gradually adjusted the sling tension. These all helped to gradually remove the "tilt to the right hand side". Also, turning the sling into a "single thickness" sling helped too (but that is another thread on here altogether).
One thing that made a big change was also adjusting and tilting the butt hook assembly. I use the Anschutz 4765 hook but plate on a 2213-8300 butt plate carrier. It can be manipulated in quite a few directions and degrees of cant/tilt. This took many months but I eventually found a setting that helps keep the butt firmly placed into the shoulder and that also helps to counteract that "tilting or falling" feeling out to the right.
Hunting for and finding that prone position that works for you will take quite a long time as you tweak and adjust and try things to fix issues. I guess that is the part of the process/journey that "IS" smallbore match rifle shooting. Furthermore, getting the rifle to "fit like a glove" is also part of the greater challenge.
Now I don't want to compete with sbrmike, but if I ever get my hands on a used 2213 stock, I will have a walnut 1912 stock up for cheap sale!!! Sounds like he has a really good trade proposal for you though. GET THAT 4751 HANDSTOP!!!!