Round Between Cleanings 1911 Bullseye Gun

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:01 pm

There are some very helpful videos on youtube for assembling and taking apart a 1911.
No particular comments on the MCP gun. Where you sometimes run into problems with custom guns is if you reload your own ammo. On tight chambered competition guns if the ammo specs are off at all, you can have feeding problems.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:23 pm

Thanks again Isabell:

I don't reload ..... yet. What i do know is good reloading seems to run about 17 a box for 45's. That's not including time. How many rounds can someone make? If they're diligent ... 200? At minimum wage that's 20/box. So unless it's about accuracy i think it's a loss for me big time.

The dilemma is it seems more practical to buy the ammo as MCP, Mountain Competition Pistols sells Zinns ammo at 23 per box. ASYM is pricy at 27/box. There it seems to be woirth it but i don't know anything about that. I do know the best rifle shots all reload for precision accuracy.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:40 pm

Most bullseye shooters reload, I would say between matches and practice (if you want to be competitive) you will probably shoot between 5-10k rounds a year. if you can afford to buy ammo for that much shooting, it is no problem not to reload but most of us use a progressive press and it takes less than an hour to knock out a couple of hundred rounds. My short line loads cost about 11 cents a piece, and my long line loads cost about 17 cents a piece. If I was using Zins ammo I think it would be more than double that cost.
The other reason to reload is to tune your ammo to your gun for both accuracy at the long line, and low recoil at the short line. Now if you have more money than time, sometimes it is just best to buy the ammo but I am not currently in that position.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:06 pm

Well thanks Isabel!

As I may have said I fired my first shot with a pistol just over a month ago. I am a doctor and study the heck out of everything. Just because I can afford it if reloading saves money and doesn't take all day I'll do it. Is the short line 25 and the long line 50 yards?

You are giving me a wealth of information and I really appreciate that. As a total beginner I think there os so much to being good that it can be overwhelming so i break it down into sections and set my weekly goals accordingly. I entered my first match this Saturday. Steel plate challenge at a club I just joined.

I shoot about 450-600 rounds in 3- 2 hour practice sessions per week.

I am going to look at a Dillon machine this weekend, what's the best?

Thanks again!

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:55 pm

Dillons are very good. I would recommend anything above a square deal. The reason that I think that is a poor choice is I understand the dies for it will not work in the other higher end units if you decide to upgrade. I personally use a 550 and have met a lot of people very happy with their 650s.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:03 pm

Thanks again. NOt to sound so novice but what's a "square deal". Is that a bottom of the line Dillon?

Because time is an issue for me i would like to get the best machine and fastest turn around time as far as production per hour.

Do the same machines do 9mm, 38, 45 and 32 calibers?

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:29 pm

Yes, the square deal is the bottom of the line Dillon machine. If you call Dillon and tell them how many rounds per hour you want to do, they can recommend the best machine at the best price.
You do have to change out certain things to run different calibers on the dillon. The dies are one, the shell plate is another and the primer system needs to be changed out to run either large primers or small primers.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:24 pm

If you want to load mulitple calibers I would choose the 550. The 650 and 1050 are just that much harder to change calibers on. If you are reloading 45's with a bevel base bullet it would be no problem to load 500 per hour. 38's are pretty close but 9's would be slower and 32's are a lot slower. The taller and skinnier the case the more it can tip from debris below the case and cause a case to get crunched. 32's are easy to do this with and 45's are just about impossible to get tipped and messed up. I find that the 9's cases and bullets are harder to pick up and get turned the right direction and consequently slower. If you get into a 650 or 1050 I don't think they are that much faster without the case feeder and that makes caliber changes even more time consuming. Since you can pick and choose components I feel that handloads can be made more accurate, especially 32's.

caa028 · Post by **caa028** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:49 pm

Brian Enos website has tons of info on the Dillon presses including the recommendations on specific model, caliber conversions and their true cost, etc... http://brianenos.com/pages/dillon.html

For me the biggest advantage of 650 over 550 is not the rounds per hour, but safety (much lower probability of squibs/double charge loads) with auto indexing.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:49 am

Thank you all so much. I will do some homewoprk and a range near me who sells Dillons has them all on display with personal instruction when you buy one so i can get started.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:05 am

What is your cost to reload a box of 45's out of curiosiity?

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:26 am

Depends on more than one thing.

Bullets - cheap lead vs top dollar jacketed, or home cast
Primers - retail or bulk purchased
Powder - fairly uniform cost (7000/4gr= 1750 loads Bullseye per pound)
Brass - New Starline vs inherited range brass, number if firings to amortise
Equipment amortized?

Figure the singular round cost per each component, and add them up to a cost per round. Factor in the age of the brass from new to loaded several times.

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:58 am

This will vary pretty much between individuals and it will all come down to bullet choice. Primers will cost you around 3 cents each. Since I have been doing this a long time I am an opportunity buyer and doubt if I paid more than 2 cents. If I were buying bullets, I would buy 200 grain Magnus or Zero swaged, Dardas or Lasercast cast bullets and these will cost you about 8 cents apiece. I can't recommend different ones because some I haven't tried and some are not good. Be careful who you take recommendations from because some people only care if they come out the front and don't shoot bullseye competitively and others never test them but take them for granted. I personally use a 069 Saeco bullet I cast myself and they cost me next to nothing but labor and that labor is high and is certainly something to consider. I do it because it is the most accurate thing I can come up with. Bear in mind though that if a given bullet will shoot consistant groups out of a certain gun at 2 1/2 inches and another will shoot 2 inches, that is a big improvement but won't matter that much in the end game. Powder is the last requirement and it depends on how fast or slow of a powder you use. It will cost between 1 and 2 cents a shot and again since I have been doing this a long time, I got powder when it was cheap so I paid less. Starting from scratch and since I am sure you don't want to cast bullets I would expect you to have to pay about 13 cents a round. Another thing to consider is that you will have to experiment a little to get the best round for your gun. An example is with a Dardas bullet I got about 2 1/4 inches 10 shots groups out of my Ransom rest with a .451 bullet. A .452 bullet gave about 3 and a .453 gave about 4 1/2. Most would use .452 but I have no idea if that is because of testing or just because of what they heard. I also got quite a difference from different amounts of powder and the best were in a narrow window as far as powder amount were concerned. Everyone has a favorite load and some that I know the other person was successful with weren't good for me so I think giving a load is a waste of time. A good bullet is the most important, the right speed is second and which powder is third but a far third and which primer, or which empty case is a non issue. Look up Magnus on the web and you can see what their loads did and they will even say "with mixed brass". The right speed is going to be somewhere between about 650 to 775 for 50 yards and depending if you can get the accuracy you want about 600 and up for 25. If I were you I would pick any bullet that was recommended to you by someone you trust and any powder that is listed for this aplication and load them to whatever will give you between 700 and 750 and go from there.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:29 pm

I kinda of discout the price of the brass because with pistol, unlike rifle you can reload it indefinitely until it cracks. After that if you go to the big matches you can usually trade your damaged brass for once fired starline. The Guard and the active army will both do this for you.
As I calculated before my short line loads are currently about 11 cents a round to make and my long line loads are 17 cents. I need 60 long line loads for a 2700 and 120 short line loads. If we go with 140 short line loads to account for the possibility of alabis then do the math, I am paying roughly 27 dollars for 200 rounds of bullseye ammo.
If you want to save brass and not have it be too much of a pain in the ass, you might want to look into getting one of these

http://www.cmmshootingsports.com/index. ... m4dbhiebm5

Also you should get a gauge from either a gunsmith or Bruce Martindale which you can use on your brass to make sure it is not bulged and unsuitable for reloading. I think Dillon actually carried them too.

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:17 pm

Thank you SOOOO much. All such good information.

With iron sights i am reading Laslo Antals book about aim point. Do you select your point of aim and set your sights so you are totally below the bull? I have been setting so i am right on the 10 kinda like splitting the bull in half.

Thanks

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:29 pm

How iron sights are shot depends on the shooter and apparently with the coach. When I shot in the AMU in 1966 we were told to look at the front sight and ignore everything else except to make sure our trigger let off was a surprise. The concept is that the eye will desire to put everything in the center because it is round and wants things to be in the center because that is where it sees the best. That is where the idea of shooting a blank target without a black came from. Talking to others since, a lot say that they take a 6 o'clock hold. This is completely different as you have to watch the target to know where 6 o'clock is and we were told to never watch the target. I have seen some people that use the 6 method that shoot real good scores but for me that doesn't work well at all and will make me pull the trigger when I want it to go off instead of it being a surprise and consequently making a bad shot because of poor trigger pull or heeling the gun. My gun is adjusted to where it hits when shooting off hand. If I would benchrest the gun and watch the target and sights at the same time it will group in a different place. This method works well for me and others when shooting at a target but if I were asked to aim at a particular item like an animal for instance, it wouldn't work at all-- Bill --

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:48 pm

Wow Bill you certainly sound an expert to me and at 55 i am just starting so the best habits i want first. Just like i did to master golf.

So to get this right, for you, the focus is only on the front sight? And the fuzzy target is where? It must be somewhere.

By the way i love that picture of the trigger release being a "surprise".

I am certain at this early stage i am jerking a bit.

Thanks again, Richie

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:42 pm

The best way to approach this is probably to take a target and turn it around with the blank side toward you. Put your gun up and center for a moment on the middle of the paper which means you are looking at the paper, the front, and rear sight all at the same time. From there forget about the paper and watch only that the the front sight is very clear and is centered between the rear sight and the top of the front sight is even with the top of the rear. Try to apply half to three quarters of what it should take to make the gun go off and hold it there while quickly making your mind go back to watching the front sight and its alignment. If everything is done right the gun will go off in a few seconds from that point. When it does go off, think about what your alignment was at the moment it went off, and the bullet should have gone in that direction. In other words if you saw the front sight left of what you think it should have been at that moment, the bullet should have hit left of your normal group. If however you saw the sight suddenly disappear at the moment it went off and the bullet hit low left (right hand shooter) it means you willfully pulled the trigger when you thought sight alignment was perfect. This willfully word is tricky because you didn't want to do it but your subconsience did and that is what you have to control. If you start to group better doing this, move your sights so your group is centered. To get the proper trigger control, the best thing in my opinion is to stand at a white wall a couple of feet away. With an obviously empty gun try dryfiring it with the same idea in mind and watch to see if your sight moves when the gun clicks. First make sure your particular gun can be safely dryfired as some can't be without danger of breaking something internally. When you get this pretty well mastered, go to a range and have a friend maybe load a bullet and maybe not. When you pull the trigger just as you practiced against the wall, and the gun goes off it should be a good shot. When finally the person doesn't put a bullet in your gun and you think there is and it goes off the sights should not jump. This is just an exercise to make sure that the intimidation of the recoil and noise, and excitement doesn't make you flinch. It will stick out like a sore thumb if you do because the gun will nosedive. Shooting Bullseye and other disciplines like it are head games and I am sure that is how the word discipline came to be used and what makes it so fascinating. It is making yourself do what seems simple when it isn't because your subconsience won't do what you told it to. All of this is basically what I was told all those years ago when I was first invited to shoot in the Army AMU. We all shot master scores in somewhere near 6 months but when you are young, practice 6 days a week on the taxpayers dime, with the best coaches in the world, it certainly made it a lot easier. Oh-- and yes I still jerk the trigger more than I wish I would. -- Bill --

rstriano · Post by **rstriano** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:35 pm

Hey Bill it's a priviledge to get this information from you. Anyone related to AMU i am proud of. I will put it to the test at my range tomorrow and see how it goes. I'll let you know.

This may be obvious but when you discuss holding on the paper then coming back to focus on the sights, you are speaking off hand, correct?

I know this takes time and i have learned from Golf never to get down on myself. Just breath and get ready for the next shot as the last one is gone already. It took me five months to get 5 shots nearly in the same hole at 100 yds with my 22 so i am not frsutrated at all.

Thank you so much for your time and instructional advice, i really appreciate that.

Richie

oldcaster · Post by **oldcaster** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:09 pm

Richie as you quoted:"This may be obvious but when you discuss holding on the paper then coming back to focus on the sights, you are speaking off hand, correct? "

Yes, I am speaking of standing up and this is a phenomena that probably has something to do with the eyes that I really don't understand. If a person is benchresting a gun with iron sights and gets it lined up with where they want the sights and then before setting the gun off, they start concentrating more on the front sight, it will improve their groups. Perhaps it makes the trigger control better too.

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Round Between Cleanings 1911 Bullseye Gun

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