Support hand circulation cut off in prone...why?

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:00 pm

I'm not good at anatomy...not sure why my support hand is going numb from its circulation being cut off in prone after 10 minutes like clockwork.

I am guessing it is from leaning on that elbow somehow as the most likely culprit. I don't think its the sling on my upper arm, because its primarily the feeling in the hand that gets cut off and not much below that, but maybe that's now how a circulation bottleneck works? I don't think its the sling near my wrist or the glove or grip on the rifle, but I guess it could be?

Anyway I figure a guru here can tell me what the most likely over-pressure point is and how to fix it? Otherwise I am really happy with the position. Well sort of, you know ;-) I don't want to change anything.

I find it doesn't much affect my ability to shoot, but its a little distracting...like I little kid in the back of my mind I worry what if the sensation doesn't return! So maybe I rush a little on the end to get out of position...

Thanks

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:30 pm

One likely reason would be if you are holding the fore end in the palm of your hand. This twists the wrist down, causing pain and tingling.

Solution is to rest the fore end on the meaty base of the thumb. Usually have to rotate your hand slightly more under the stock.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:52 am

It's normally a result of the sling cutting off or reducing the blood flow to the hand. The key is to reduce it so that you can shoot longer in more comfort. I'd check the sling tension - it's quite common for people to have the sling too tight - there's a fine line between just right, and too much.

Rob.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:52 am

Pat McCoy wrote:One likely reason would be if you are holding the fore end in the palm of your hand. This twists the wrist down, causing pain and tingling.

Solution is to rest the fore end on the meaty base of the thumb. Usually have to rotate your hand slightly more under the stock.

It is indeed in my palm. I have an old 1807 stock, but I'll see what I can do. thanks!

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:55 am

RobStubbs wrote:It's normally a result of the sling cutting off or reducing the blood flow to the hand. The key is to reduce it so that you can shoot longer in more comfort. I'd check the sling tension - it's quite common for people to have the sling too tight - there's a fine line between just right, and too much.

Rob.

When you say sling tension, are you referring to how tight the sling is affixed to my upper arm (it is quite tight), or sling length and the resulting force being exerted on the back of my wrist/arm in position? If the latter, could it be I just need a more padded glove?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:42 am

melchloboo wrote:
RobStubbs wrote:It's normally a result of the sling cutting off or reducing the blood flow to the hand. The key is to reduce it so that you can shoot longer in more comfort. I'd check the sling tension - it's quite common for people to have the sling too tight - there's a fine line between just right, and too much.

Rob.
When you say sling tension, are you referring to how tight the sling is affixed to my upper arm (it is quite tight), or sling length and the resulting force being exerted on the back of my wrist/arm in position? If the latter, could it be I just need a more padded glove?

I was referring to the latter. If it is too tight then loosen it. The caveat is that you will need to try variations before you get it right. Glove might make a difference but that's less likely (IME).

If you think about it blood needs to go into your hand and out again. Restricting blood flow via the back of the hand or the palm will have the same effect. If it was the palm then I'd expect more local pain there. One thing to do is look at your hand immediately when you've finished your shooting - do you have a big dent anywhere ?

Rob.

USMC0802 · Post by **USMC0802** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:15 pm

I get severe pain and cramps in my hand extremely quick (which is differ fent than the hand going numb). Because of this I have tried different grip, different gloves, different stocks, different slings and sling placement and still haven't figured it out.

Because of this problem, I was doing some trouble shooting with a coach. I rarely have the hand go numb but did have this happen in the finals at USANC. The coach I was working with told me the hand going numb is almost always due to a nerve in the elbow. I don't have this problem much but something you might look at and let us know how true this root cause is. My numbing issue did go away when I broke my position, got the circulation back and got back in position so maybe he was spot on with the elbow nerve root cause.

For your issue, not sure if trying more padding or looking at your jacket or sweater or whatever you wear under your coat can alleviate this

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:49 pm

USMC0802 wrote:I get severe pain and cramps in my hand extremely quick (which is differ fent than the hand going numb). Because of this I have tried different grip, different gloves, different stocks, different slings and sling placement and still haven't figured it out.

Because of this problem, I was doing some trouble shooting with a coach. I rarely have the hand go numb but did have this happen in the finals at USANC. The coach I was working with told me the hand going numb is almost always due to a nerve in the elbow. I don't have this problem much but something you might look at and let us know how true this root cause is. My numbing issue did go away when I broke my position, got the circulation back and got back in position so maybe he was spot on with the elbow nerve root cause.

For your issue, not sure if trying more padding or looking at your jacket or sweater or whatever you wear under your coat can alleviate this

I used to have the problem you describe but that has since gone away as the position has been tweaked over time.

As soon as I get out of position and the blood flows, my hand is fine with no lingering numbness as you describe. Wish I could remember how/why that problem went away for me. I know I had that problem in High Power until I switched from a glove to a mitt for that rifle (ar-15).

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:51 am

One off numbness could just be the position not right, creases in clothing, or perhaps even over tense. If it happens all the time and you think it's the elbow (that should hurt if it is) then look at altering your positon. Slightly lower will roll you off the point of the elbow on to the front of it.

Simple things like making sure your clothing fits propely, has no seams in the wrong places etc will all help. Check for comfort every time you dress for shooting.

To be honest a lot of this can really only be resolved with a lot of targetted trial and error with a decent coach. And of course write everything down, so that you can look back and see what worked if you change anything and the problem recurrs.

Rob.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:51 am

I don't shoot 3P so I apologize if I'm off base here, but I did have a problem with my carpal tunnels in both wrists and this sounds familiar. Any position that holds the wrist in extension, especially if the wrist is extended and pressure put on the palm, will put pressure on the nerves in the carpal tunnel. If rotating the wrist away from full extension and supporting the rifle on the meaty part of the thumb relieves the issues, as Pat McCoy suggested, and if the tingling is primarily in the thumb and first two fingers, carpal tunnel syndrome may be the problem.

The damage can become permanent with time, so if you suspect carpal tunnel syndrome, you should see a doctor. The carpal tunnel release surgery is simple and very effective if done in time. My wrist problems had different, long standing causes so I ended up having surgery on both wrists years ago and it has worked out very well for me.

Roger

xnoncents · Post by **xnoncents** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:04 pm

I have a similar problem of a lesser severity.

After a tiny bit of medical research, it appears that it is possible that numbness may materialize from the pinching of the Ulnar nerve which comes through the elbow (your funny bone nerve) and up to your fingers. Carpel Tunnel is listed as another possible cause, but I'm guessing that like 90% of us you only can replicate this numbness by shooting prone, which kind of reduces, (but does not eliminate) carpel tunnel as a likely source.

I think Rob has a point about checking for a circulation pinch point as well.

I found changing mats (I originally had a super thin mat from Midway, which was only a tad better than concrete), and experimenting with gloves helped me a lot also. Not all gloves are created equal. I feel like the Kurt Thune 'Solid' helps disperse sling pressure better than my previous. Those were quick fix improvements for me, but everyone is different.

Several posters here and in other threads recommend slight alterations of elbow placement, wrist twist, sling tension/placement and adjusting hand stop size/position. I don't have a complete solution myself yet. I plan to test the remaining variables one at a time until I achieve some measure of tolerable comfort. I suspect elbow/forearm angle and ground pressure at the elbow are my main culprits. These will not be quick fix improvements.

But, that being said, comfort is a highly personal and subjective thing. For sure pain takes the fun out of an endeavor and does not contribute to good shooting. Try some experiments and take notes. Let us know what works. If there is an MD or Orthopedic specialist shooter reading I would love for you to weigh in on bio-mechanics.

Andrewand · Post by **Andrewand** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:51 pm

One off asleep could just be the position not appropriate, creases in accouterment, or conceivably even over close. If it happens all the time and you anticipate it's the bend (that should aching if it is) again attending at altering your positon. hardly lower will cycle you off the point of the bend on to the foreground of it.

Wholesale Gucci Shoes
Nike Shox Shoes
Supra

High Tops
Polo Shirts Wholesale