22lr Headspace or Chamber issue???

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:32 am

Hello, I have a Walther 22lr. The bolt closes extreemely hard with a live round. The chamber looks good and clean. How can I determine if I have a head space issue or what the problem might be? Harvey

sbrmike · Post by **sbrmike** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:09 am

It may be the bullet profile. Your gun probably has a match chamber and some ammo may chamber hard due to the larger bullet profile. Try a target round or at least a different brand of ammo.

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:13 am

sbrmike wrote:It may be the bullet profile. Your gun probably has a match chamber and some ammo may chamber hard due to the larger bullet profile. Try a target round or at least a different brand of ammo.

I have tried several different brands of match ammo. and all seem the same.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:47 am

Have you been using Eley ammo, I ask because the lube' they use can build up around the breech area where the bullet get pushed into the barrel.As you load some of the lube gets scraped off, this builds up overtime and the rim of the case sits on this and causes issues, it can go quite hard.
Another point, when was the barrel last cleaned. Colin

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:39 am

Colin wrote:Have you been using Eley ammo, I ask because the lube' they use can build up around the breech area where the bullet get pushed into the barrel.As you load some of the lube gets scraped off, this builds up overtime and the rim of the case sits on this and causes issues, it can go quite hard.
Another point, when was the barrel last cleaned. Colin

I have cleaned the bbl. several times. I don't think it is a dirty bbl. issue. The bolt closes fine on an empty chamber or a fired case. I hate to think about sending it out due to the cost and not knowing who repairs Walthers.

rayjay · Post by **rayjay** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:37 pm

I have seen rough chambering jobs cause the problem you are having. The only way to tell is to take the rifle to someone with a borescope so they can look at the throat area of the chamber under magnification.

If would also be wise to have the headspace checked. Once you close the bolt on a cartridge and fire it the empty case becomes fireformed to your headspace dimension and this lets the fired case easily chamber.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:58 am

You didn't say how old the Walther is, has this just started happening or has it been like this from new. Can you push the bullet in right up to it's rim, or is it tight to push home.If it's new it looks like the bolt headspace has been adjusted incorrectly. My Anschutz rifles bolts have the last 3 digits of the rifle serial number on them.The bolts fit in any of the rifles but the headspace is different and you can get misfires or issues like yours if their fitted to the wrong rifle. Colin

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:07 pm

Colin points are correct, the fact that you can push in an empty easily is quite relavent, an empty does not have a bullet to go into the barrel lead, The head space is set on the case base and rim which really suggests that the headspace is OK. I'd give the barrel lead a really good clean, use a fouling remover and scrub with a phospher bronze brush, that could easily solve it.
If a scrub out does'nt solve it let a gunsmith check the bore lead.

On the bolt issue, Walther bolts are not numbered so its important to keep the bolt with the gun it was headspaced for, my wife and I both have Walthers and the first thing I did when we got them was to ident the bolts so they can't get mixed up.
Robin

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:36 pm

Colin wrote:You didn't say how old the Walther is, has this just started happening or has it been like this from new. Can you push the bullet in right up to it's rim, or is it tight to push home.If it's new it looks like the bolt headspace has been adjusted incorrectly. My Anschutz rifles bolts have the last 3 digits of the rifle serial number on them.The bolts fit in any of the rifles but the headspace is different and you can get misfires or issues like yours if their fitted to the wrong rifle. Colin

Colin, the rifle is an older KK International. It looks new, it had this problem when I got it. The rifle shoots great, but just very, very hard to close the bolt. I am 72 and still messing around with BR50. The older I get the less hand strength I have. Harvey

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:54 pm

If like you say you have cleaned the barrel/lead it looks to be a headspace problem, or wrong bolt.A friends old walther kk was having problems with misfires and the Walther service guy at Bisley looked at the bolt and did what he could but did say spares for his gun were getting harder to source due to the age.Colin

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:19 pm

Colin wrote:If like you say you have cleaned the barrel/lead it looks to be a headspace problem, or wrong bolt.A friends old walther kk was having problems with misfires and the Walther service guy at Bisley looked at the bolt and did what he could but did say spares for his gun were getting harder to source due to the age.Colin

I am not having a problem with misfires. Did they ever chamber any of the KK Walters for .22 short? It seems to chamber them OK. Any suggestions along those lines? Harvey

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:50 am

I'm not aware of any chambered for .22 short but if it takes a .22 short OK that almost conclusively proves its a problem with the lead not the headspace. I'm pretty sure its simply a build up of fouling in the lead probably not been cleaned for 30 years before you got it, set to with a phospher bronze brush on the lead and I'm sure that will sort it. If that does'nt work use a really strong bore cleaner and try again.
Robin

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:01 pm

RobinC wrote:I'm not aware of any chambered for .22 short but if it takes a .22 short OK that almost conclusively proves its a problem with the lead not the headspace. I'm pretty sure its simply a build up of fouling in the lead probably not been cleaned for 30 years before you got it, set to with a phospher bronze brush on the lead and I'm sure that will sort it. If that does'nt work use a really strong bore cleaner and try again.
Robin

Robin, I have literally cleaned the chamber to death. It did not seem to help. Harvey

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:23 pm

Harvey,The bolt closes ok without a round in it, or does the bolt seem tight. It seems to be headspace or wrong bolt I would think, do you know anyone with a set of headspace gauges. Failing that it looks like a trip to a gunsmith I'm sorry to say. Colin

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:23 pm

Colin wrote:Harvey,The bolt closes ok without a round in it, or does the bolt seem tight. It seems to be headspace or wrong bolt I would think, do you know anyone with a set of headspace gauges. Failing that it looks like a trip to a gunsmith I'm sorry to say. Colin

Colin, the bolt closes fine without a round in the chamber. It also closes fine with a live 22short or an empty 22lr case in the chamber. I do not have access to a set of head space guages at this time. Harvey

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:32 pm

If it closes ok with a short in there it can't be headspace then, a borescope may show what's up.As Robin says it seems to be the lead that's the problem.Or it's been re-chambered/re-barreled for a short.If you push a .22lr in up to the rim then remove it and look at the bullet to see if and how far the rifling has marked it.Colin

rayjay · Post by **rayjay** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:14 pm

When the chamber is cut there can be roughness on the lands. It will look like a fine tooth metal file. This is the part of the chamber that engraves the bullet when you close the bolt. As you can imagine, forcing the bullet to engrave 6 to 8 little metal files reguires a lot more pressure than if the metal was polished to a chrome like surface.

You can only see this with a borescope. Anybody that is really serious about competeing with a rimfire should look at his bbl with a borescope. This is also the only way to find out what your bbl wants as far as cleaning.

The purchase of the borescope showed me the problems in my chambers and I was able to develop methods of dealing with the issues.
Since I bought my borescope I have looked at a lot of rimfire bbls and even the ones done by 'name' rimfire smiths had problems in the leade area of the chamber. The typical problems are burrs left by the reamer on the sides of the lands and the general roughness on the lands [ the metal file look ]. Removing these burrs and smoothing the roughness is essential if the bbl is to shoot well. I also polish this area with a few Flitz soaked patches after the burrs and roughness is removed.

Any burrs or roughness in the leade will strip lead off the bullet causing all sorts of accuracy problems.

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:21 pm

rayjay wrote:When the chamber is cut there can be roughness on the lands. It will look like a fine tooth metal file. This is the part of the chamber that engraves the bullet when you close the bolt. As you can imagine, forcing the bullet to engrave 6 to 8 little metal files reguires a lot more pressure than if the metal was polished to a chrome like surface.

You can only see this with a borescope. Anybody that is really serious about competeing with a rimfire should look at his bbl with a borescope. This is also the only way to find out what your bbl wants as far as cleaning.

The purchase of the borescope showed me the problems in my chambers and I was able to develop methods of dealing with the issues.
Since I bought my borescope I have looked at a lot of rimfire bbls and even the ones done by 'name' rimfire smiths had problems in the leade area of the chamber. The typical problems are burrs left by the reamer on the sides of the lands and the general roughness on the lands [ the metal file look ]. Removing these burrs and smoothing the roughness is essential if the bbl is to shoot well. I also polish this area with a few Flitz soaked patches after the burrs and roughness is removed.

Any burrs or roughness in the leade will strip lead off the bullet causing all sorts of accuracy problems.

I will look for a borescope close to me.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:05 pm

This problem of roughness on the lands are normally when it's a new barrel, the age of this Walther suggests it's had a few thousand rounds down it, so most of the roughness I would have though is well worn away by now

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:20 pm

Colin wrote:This problem of roughness on the lands are normally when it's a new barrel, the age of this Walther suggests it's had a few thousand rounds down it, so most of the roughness I would have though is well worn away by now

Colin, even though the rifle is an older model from the condition that it is in, I doubt that a very few hundred rounds have been down the tube if that many. Harvey