Getting back into reloading for my S&W model 52 I purchased bullets from a number of different vendors (Midway, Zero, and Barry's). Today I loaded up 30 of each for a side-by-side test. I don't have a ransom rest so I had to do with what I had, my two hands and holding the gun on top of my gun box. Not the best, but it is what I had to work with.
Here was my protocol for the test...
148 grain, hollow base wad cutters
31 grains of bullseye
Brush bore 10 times
Patch bore 4 times with oil
Shoot 5 rounds of test ammo off target
Shoot 20 rounds of test ammo on target @ 75 feet
Measure the smallest circle touching all holes
Barry's bullets --> 5 3/4"
Zero bullets --> 2 1/2"
Midway bullets --> 2 1/4"
The Barrys bullets were horrid as you can see. This is the first time using copper plated bullets and probably the last time. The Zero bullets were very clean but very sticky although easy to handle during reloading. The Midway bullets were heavily lubed and the bullets are a mess to work with. Lot's of flakes of the dried lube comming off throughout the reloading process.
Not sure why Barry's bullets were so bad. I was a bit surprised that the Midway bullets did better than the Zero bullets as they were so caked up with that lube.
I also did a similar test with my S&W model 41 using basically the same protocol.
CCI- Mini Mag High Velocity --> 1 5/8"
Winchester Match --> 1 1/2"
Federal Gold Medal --> 1 1/4"
CCI - Standard Velocity -- 1"
Again, the CCI High Velocity bullets are copper plated but also hollow point, I didn't expect them to work the best.
The Winchester Match bullets performed better in accuracy but REALLY sucked in my gun. I had 4 duds during the test and 2 duds when shooting the first 5 rounds.
The Federal Gold Medal was an improvement over the previous two. These also cycle smoothly with the gun. I have shot a couple hundred rounds of this and have had a few duds.
The CCI Standard Velocity is my old bullet of choice 25 years ago and will continue to be. The best group and certainly the most reliable with my 41. I must say though, this was as surprise as I had recently read an article comparing a variety of 22 ammo and they found the CCI Standard Velocity to be terrible.
I took photos of the targets, so if anyone is interested in seeing the targets, let me know and I will try to figure out how to post them.
I must also admit I am not all that happy with my model 52. Holding a 1" group with my model 41 certainly wants me to do the same with the model 52. I may have to find a really good gunsmith to give that gun a good going over - anyone have any suggestions as to who?
Chris
Bullets - some rough data I gathered today...
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
I agree, plated bullets equals bad shooting.GOVTMODEL wrote:Your powder charge is a bit on the high side. Try 2.8 grains of Bullseye.
Plated bullets are not a good choice.
I will try a 2.8 instead of 3.1. Currently I don't have a lot of trouble handling the recoil but it is a bit snappy. I am shooting a borrowed 45 (clark heavy long slide) and it is more docile. If I can get my model 52 to handle like that 45, I believe I would be in the high end of Expert class within a few tournaments.
Chris
M-52 reloads and accuracy
Be so warned....S&W M-52 is a fickle gun for reloads, it is not like my Hammerli P-240 that will eat anything.
The gobbed on lube on Midway's 148gr HBWC Remington bullets is just fine, ignore the mess and wear gloves. Better lube is available via compounding it at home with beeswax/graphite and carnauba wax. My senses tell me that Berry's bullets may drag in the bore, so they may need more propellant. For soft lead, 2.7 gr. is all you need. Much less will short shuck the slide sometimes. You probably need to buy Wolff's Calibration spring pack and drop the 10# spring in yours. Choose a spring that forms a pile of brass just to the right of you.
For three solid reasons, a substantial roll crimp or the proper taper crimp (refer to Speer manual for dimension) must be applied to the finished round.
Is your slide matched to the frame? Is your barrel bushing tight? Possibly a better rest would be called for, too. Do you have the trigger stop adjusted for overtravel? The Ultra Dot Match Dot scope may be a plus factor. Also, if shooting iron sights, aperature devices on the shooting glasses along with top shelf grips, such as Nill will help shrink group. Have you shot factory ammo like GECO, WIN, REM or RWS to establish a baseline? Do you have bubble level on the gun to eliminate canting?
Three of my four M-52s are in active use. I have never sensed that they needed further accuracy tuning. I also hesitate to clean them; rather, I routinely wipe the Bullseye "slime" off with a rag. I lower them into the soak tank when they need it.
BTW: have you tried Federal Auto Match 22s? I believe they are the old Federal Champions reincarnated. I feed them to the M-41s, Victor and Trophy. I shoot a 325 Rnd. box a week. I have had one fail to ignite from a box I bought 6 years ago. They are accurate; 10-xs at 50 yards, FBI Qual. targets out of my 70's issue H-S Trophy.
Anyway, good luck with your quest.
The gobbed on lube on Midway's 148gr HBWC Remington bullets is just fine, ignore the mess and wear gloves. Better lube is available via compounding it at home with beeswax/graphite and carnauba wax. My senses tell me that Berry's bullets may drag in the bore, so they may need more propellant. For soft lead, 2.7 gr. is all you need. Much less will short shuck the slide sometimes. You probably need to buy Wolff's Calibration spring pack and drop the 10# spring in yours. Choose a spring that forms a pile of brass just to the right of you.
For three solid reasons, a substantial roll crimp or the proper taper crimp (refer to Speer manual for dimension) must be applied to the finished round.
Is your slide matched to the frame? Is your barrel bushing tight? Possibly a better rest would be called for, too. Do you have the trigger stop adjusted for overtravel? The Ultra Dot Match Dot scope may be a plus factor. Also, if shooting iron sights, aperature devices on the shooting glasses along with top shelf grips, such as Nill will help shrink group. Have you shot factory ammo like GECO, WIN, REM or RWS to establish a baseline? Do you have bubble level on the gun to eliminate canting?
Three of my four M-52s are in active use. I have never sensed that they needed further accuracy tuning. I also hesitate to clean them; rather, I routinely wipe the Bullseye "slime" off with a rag. I lower them into the soak tank when they need it.
BTW: have you tried Federal Auto Match 22s? I believe they are the old Federal Champions reincarnated. I feed them to the M-41s, Victor and Trophy. I shoot a 325 Rnd. box a week. I have had one fail to ignite from a box I bought 6 years ago. They are accurate; 10-xs at 50 yards, FBI Qual. targets out of my 70's issue H-S Trophy.
Anyway, good luck with your quest.
Based on your comments I can see two things that need addressing right away...
1) Load amount, I need to reduce it.
2) Change the springs. These are the original springs and probably have 5000 or more rounds through them. I tried to find factory springs with no luck so thanks for suggesting Wolff's springs - will order up some today.
I don't have a Speer manual so I am going by "feel" at this point. I know I have a bit more crimp on these reloads than what I used to do with my old Hornady press. I need to get a better reference book than my Lyman which doesn't tell me everything I would like to know.
My gun is stock, never been to a gunsmith. Barrel busing is tight. Trigger adjustments are good and just the way I like it. A better rest would be better but not having one, I made do with what I have.
Around here, there are not too many ranges that sell ammo for this gun (or bullseye shooting in general). I have to get some and do more comparisions to validate my efforts.
As for the sights, frankly I am bit lost on this. I used to use 2x burris scopes, but found that my shaking hand was magnafied too much and also seeing the black dot on the black target was troublesome. I bought a tru-glo red dot for an air pistol, decided to put it on my M-41, that sight looks MUCH better to me than the Ultradot L/T I have on my M-52. The dot is round with crips edges whereas the ultradot is a larger dot, not perfectly round, and has flaring. I am going to continue to use both sights to see if I end up liking the Tru-glo better. Generally I am not much for buying "cheap" things, but hands down the Tru-glo looks better.
I have not tried Federal Auto Match ammo, I will look for some and give it a try.
Chris
1) Load amount, I need to reduce it.
2) Change the springs. These are the original springs and probably have 5000 or more rounds through them. I tried to find factory springs with no luck so thanks for suggesting Wolff's springs - will order up some today.
I don't have a Speer manual so I am going by "feel" at this point. I know I have a bit more crimp on these reloads than what I used to do with my old Hornady press. I need to get a better reference book than my Lyman which doesn't tell me everything I would like to know.
My gun is stock, never been to a gunsmith. Barrel busing is tight. Trigger adjustments are good and just the way I like it. A better rest would be better but not having one, I made do with what I have.
Around here, there are not too many ranges that sell ammo for this gun (or bullseye shooting in general). I have to get some and do more comparisions to validate my efforts.
As for the sights, frankly I am bit lost on this. I used to use 2x burris scopes, but found that my shaking hand was magnafied too much and also seeing the black dot on the black target was troublesome. I bought a tru-glo red dot for an air pistol, decided to put it on my M-41, that sight looks MUCH better to me than the Ultradot L/T I have on my M-52. The dot is round with crips edges whereas the ultradot is a larger dot, not perfectly round, and has flaring. I am going to continue to use both sights to see if I end up liking the Tru-glo better. Generally I am not much for buying "cheap" things, but hands down the Tru-glo looks better.
I have not tried Federal Auto Match ammo, I will look for some and give it a try.
Chris
-
Levergun59
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am
- Location: Silver Lake WI
Chris,
I always tested at 50 yds because sooner or later you will have to go outdoors. Some bullets will shine at 25 yards and fail miserably at 50. Your choice of 22 ammo is curious. Test first with Eley, RWS or Lapua. It will tell you what your gun is capable of shooting. Anything over 1" at 50 yds with the good stuff will tell you that either your gun is not up to par or your bench rest technique is inadequate. Without a ransom rest sandbags under your hands and not on the barrel is the best way to shoot good groups. Build the bags around your hands so your hold is rock solid and comfortable. Back in the 90's the MMU gunsmiths told me that the Aikman barreled High Standard gun used by Brian Zins would clover leaf at 50 yds with excellent fodder. I have no reason to doubt this as he could shoot 100's at 50 yards. When you shoot 2650 or above, your guns have to be able to hold the X-ring. Just some random thoughts.
Chris
I always tested at 50 yds because sooner or later you will have to go outdoors. Some bullets will shine at 25 yards and fail miserably at 50. Your choice of 22 ammo is curious. Test first with Eley, RWS or Lapua. It will tell you what your gun is capable of shooting. Anything over 1" at 50 yds with the good stuff will tell you that either your gun is not up to par or your bench rest technique is inadequate. Without a ransom rest sandbags under your hands and not on the barrel is the best way to shoot good groups. Build the bags around your hands so your hold is rock solid and comfortable. Back in the 90's the MMU gunsmiths told me that the Aikman barreled High Standard gun used by Brian Zins would clover leaf at 50 yds with excellent fodder. I have no reason to doubt this as he could shoot 100's at 50 yards. When you shoot 2650 or above, your guns have to be able to hold the X-ring. Just some random thoughts.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Former Cheesehead here.
Thanks for the info. My distance limitation was due to the indoor range I shoot at locally which is 75 feet. I don't belong to any outdoor ranges so that makes it a bit tougher to do distance testing.
I have to find some sources for the higher end ammo, my choices locally are not geared towards match shooting but rather plinking. If you know of ammo sources, please let me know.
My 45 and 22 scoring is approaching the 95% average mark for timed and rapid fire. My centerfire (model 52) isn't nearly as good so I am working on a variety of things for that gun. This is why I decided to start some sort of benchmarking to prove to myself it is me and not the gun or ammo. To do truly accurate tests I really need to get a ransom rest though but right now would rather put the money towards updating my guns and equipment.
Chris
Former Cheesehead here.
Thanks for the info. My distance limitation was due to the indoor range I shoot at locally which is 75 feet. I don't belong to any outdoor ranges so that makes it a bit tougher to do distance testing.
I have to find some sources for the higher end ammo, my choices locally are not geared towards match shooting but rather plinking. If you know of ammo sources, please let me know.
My 45 and 22 scoring is approaching the 95% average mark for timed and rapid fire. My centerfire (model 52) isn't nearly as good so I am working on a variety of things for that gun. This is why I decided to start some sort of benchmarking to prove to myself it is me and not the gun or ammo. To do truly accurate tests I really need to get a ransom rest though but right now would rather put the money towards updating my guns and equipment.
Chris
Your M-52 project
The previous comment about longer distances is good advice. The blunt nose possessed by the HBWC pushes a lot of air. I am not a ballistics expert, but Lamborghinis cut thru the air; semis, on the other hand, push. I recall the inherent accuracy of the M-52 barrel/bushing combo on this premier hand assembled antique is very impressive. ? 1.5" @ 50 yds.? My Swiss P-210 easily prints close to this, if the gun is locked down! Keep plugging, I think there are some folks on this site that really know whatswhat.