Hello fellow shooters,
I have been using a Gehmann jacket now for a while and have been pleased with it. Its just slightly on the small side and it could use a little more material around the neck as I find the butt-plate is usually in close to my neck and not even on the jacket material/rubber. Maybe it's the jacket that doesn't fit me correctly, or I just have the butt in too close. ???
I found a very nice used Creedmoor hard back on Ebay and its better for the right shoulder having some material to rest on, but I find it bulky and more difficult to get elbow's in the same position every time. One thing that is nice on the Creedmoor is the padding on the left support elbow comes up higher and the sling has more rubber/padding compared to the ISU jacket, but I still see the same amount of pulse.
Over all the ISU jacket is more comfortable.
Since I got to try both jackets and still see so much pulse I have to be doing something wrong. I have tried multiple sling positions and I try to put it where I see the least pulse, but I just have not found any position I'm happy with that gives me lasting/staying power in position...
So I guess I'm asking could it be me, the coat, or both. All input is greatly appreciated.
Tenring
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Pulse can come from other places than just the brachial artery in the arm. It also varies from person to person as to exactly where the artery is in your arm. You can try making the sling pull more from the outside, raising and lowering the sling up and down the arm, adjusting the amount of tension you put on the sling when in position, plus no doubt other variations of your own shooting position. You may also benefit getting one of 'pulseless' slings that quite a lot of shooters now use.
Essentially though you need to get a jacket that fits you, offers you the amount of support you need, and not forgetting, is legal under whatever set of rules you shoot under (ISSF/NSRA/USAS/NRA etc). Once you have the jacket you can systematically look at optimising your position with it.
Rob.
Essentially though you need to get a jacket that fits you, offers you the amount of support you need, and not forgetting, is legal under whatever set of rules you shoot under (ISSF/NSRA/USAS/NRA etc). Once you have the jacket you can systematically look at optimising your position with it.
Rob.
Just a thought - do you do your sling up very tight around your arm? You'll pick up the pulse almost no matter what you are wearing and where you put it at that point.
My butt used to be off the neck edge of my jacket until I got a new jacket recently - it didn't seem to cause any problems, but I did get a sore collarbone if I did a lot of shooting. Not something I'd have liked to try fullbore.
My butt used to be off the neck edge of my jacket until I got a new jacket recently - it didn't seem to cause any problems, but I did get a sore collarbone if I did a lot of shooting. Not something I'd have liked to try fullbore.
I'm right handed. I have the sling snugged, but not tight. I can still move it to position it, but not easily. I like to have the sling as high as I can get it ,but then it sets on the canvas not the rubber. so I compromise and set it at the top of the rubber on the jacket. Sling holder is holding it in the highest position. When ever I position it to pull from the outside..with the movement I have loading The sling usually doesn't stay pulling from the outside.
Tenring
Tenring
The sling will move around a bit but it shouldn't twist right around. You also should try lowering the sling to see if it helps remove pulse, as that may well be your problem. One point of note is that the rubber on jackets does vary in height - my newish Kurt Thune has the rubber higher which gives me more padding under the sling (mine is fairly high). But again be aware of the rules for the comps you're shooting under as the rubber can only go so far and be of a certain dimension (under ISSF rules).
Rob.
Rob.
Tenring
A couple of things to consider with the jacket. As has been mentioned you will need one that complies with the rules you are shooting or intend to shoot under. This is important in that an ISSF/USAS legal jacket will be allowable under NRA and a few other rulebooks but an NRA jacket possibly with heavier material, thicker pads and cinching straps will not be legal for ISSF/USAS or NRA International competition.
The good news is that there is a tremendous amount of development work going into ISSF legal clothing so while the stuff tends to be expensive there is a lot of bang for the buck. I don't think much has happened with NRA style coats in 30+ years.
I am kind of assuming you are shooting prone although some of what I say applies to kneeling as well. Looking for sources of pulse bounce: Are you buttoning the entire jacket or just the top two buttons? This applies to both prone and kneeling. Most shooters will only button the top two buttons for prone. Likewise for kneeling but there you might go for the top three. Oddly enough, it is possible to have the jacket too tight and that nice stabilizer picks up the pulse throught the torso and sends it right on to the rifle.
Now, for prone only, does your jacket have straps to tighten the extra fabric that gathers around the right shoulder in prone. Be sure to tighten those when getting ready to shoot prone as it will help smooth things out and ensure more consistent butt placement.
You have not mentioned what type of sling you are using but all slings are not created equal and not all slings work well for all people. The sling I think is great the next shooter might figure sucks. There is a lot to the idea of having the sling pull from the outside of the arm to reduce pulse from the brachial artery. This is often interpreted as no tension from the inside, which often does not work very well, both due to torsion on the upper arm and also because as you note, the sling moves. A 60/40 to 70/30 split for tension outside/inside is probably where you want to be.
Then as noted, take some time, start with the sling where you like it, shoot a target (20 shots). Lower the sling strap down the arm a notch, rebuild position shoot a target, repeat. This takes some time but you might find there is one location where you are shooting better than the others.
'Dude
A couple of things to consider with the jacket. As has been mentioned you will need one that complies with the rules you are shooting or intend to shoot under. This is important in that an ISSF/USAS legal jacket will be allowable under NRA and a few other rulebooks but an NRA jacket possibly with heavier material, thicker pads and cinching straps will not be legal for ISSF/USAS or NRA International competition.
The good news is that there is a tremendous amount of development work going into ISSF legal clothing so while the stuff tends to be expensive there is a lot of bang for the buck. I don't think much has happened with NRA style coats in 30+ years.
I am kind of assuming you are shooting prone although some of what I say applies to kneeling as well. Looking for sources of pulse bounce: Are you buttoning the entire jacket or just the top two buttons? This applies to both prone and kneeling. Most shooters will only button the top two buttons for prone. Likewise for kneeling but there you might go for the top three. Oddly enough, it is possible to have the jacket too tight and that nice stabilizer picks up the pulse throught the torso and sends it right on to the rifle.
Now, for prone only, does your jacket have straps to tighten the extra fabric that gathers around the right shoulder in prone. Be sure to tighten those when getting ready to shoot prone as it will help smooth things out and ensure more consistent butt placement.
You have not mentioned what type of sling you are using but all slings are not created equal and not all slings work well for all people. The sling I think is great the next shooter might figure sucks. There is a lot to the idea of having the sling pull from the outside of the arm to reduce pulse from the brachial artery. This is often interpreted as no tension from the inside, which often does not work very well, both due to torsion on the upper arm and also because as you note, the sling moves. A 60/40 to 70/30 split for tension outside/inside is probably where you want to be.
Then as noted, take some time, start with the sling where you like it, shoot a target (20 shots). Lower the sling strap down the arm a notch, rebuild position shoot a target, repeat. This takes some time but you might find there is one location where you are shooting better than the others.
'Dude
Thanks Dude, I'll do that. I'm thinking the ISU jackets might be better in the long run as I'll be able to shoot both ISU and NRA. Of the jackets I have now the ISU Gehmann has the shoulder tension straps that do help, but the neck is cut so wide the buttplate often is not even on the jacket and winds up under the jacket collar. Or half on half off.
The NRA Creedmoor is better in the neck material, but does not have enough rubber there and slides some on the cordura nylon. Yes it has more paddingin the elbows and the rubber is higher on the sling arm, but I'm thinking that is overrated. The ISU canvas Gehmann is much more rigid. If I could mesh the best of each I'd be in good shape I think.
Tenring
The NRA Creedmoor is better in the neck material, but does not have enough rubber there and slides some on the cordura nylon. Yes it has more paddingin the elbows and the rubber is higher on the sling arm, but I'm thinking that is overrated. The ISU canvas Gehmann is much more rigid. If I could mesh the best of each I'd be in good shape I think.
Tenring
tenring,
From the sound of your discussion you are in the market for a complete new jacket, not just a solution for the one(s) you have. The problem you describe of the butt being either on the collar seam or inside the collar is simply unacceptable and while I often avoid telling someone to just go spend some money. (So often people think if I just buy a new ______ , then I will start shooting olympic scores.) In this case I will make an exception and say you really need to look into a properly cut and fitting jacket. I shoot under USAS rules so I have the automatic preference to ISSF/USUS legal stuff.
Some of the usual suspects to call in the US for off the shelf jackets are
Champion Shooters Supply: Freeland
Champions Choice: House Brand, GEH
International Shooters Service (Neal Stepp):, GEH, ANS, SAUER
You don't often hear complaints about Thune and that would be Brenzovich Firearms Training Center or Center Shot Sports. There could be others but those are the two with which I am familiar. This all depends on how deep and how full your pockets are. Two other players in high end jackets would be Monard and Mouche but I am not sure of availabity in the US.
While Thune is most often associated with custom gear they do have a line of off the shelf stuff too.
My most sincere recommendation is that you talk to any of these people and tell them your difficulties before just ordering.
Anyhow, that is my two cents on a Tuesday morning.
Cheers,
'Dude
From the sound of your discussion you are in the market for a complete new jacket, not just a solution for the one(s) you have. The problem you describe of the butt being either on the collar seam or inside the collar is simply unacceptable and while I often avoid telling someone to just go spend some money. (So often people think if I just buy a new ______ , then I will start shooting olympic scores.) In this case I will make an exception and say you really need to look into a properly cut and fitting jacket. I shoot under USAS rules so I have the automatic preference to ISSF/USUS legal stuff.
Some of the usual suspects to call in the US for off the shelf jackets are
Champion Shooters Supply: Freeland
Champions Choice: House Brand, GEH
International Shooters Service (Neal Stepp):, GEH, ANS, SAUER
You don't often hear complaints about Thune and that would be Brenzovich Firearms Training Center or Center Shot Sports. There could be others but those are the two with which I am familiar. This all depends on how deep and how full your pockets are. Two other players in high end jackets would be Monard and Mouche but I am not sure of availabity in the US.
While Thune is most often associated with custom gear they do have a line of off the shelf stuff too.
My most sincere recommendation is that you talk to any of these people and tell them your difficulties before just ordering.
Anyhow, that is my two cents on a Tuesday morning.
Cheers,
'Dude