My Scatt is driving me mad !

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:00 pm

I’ve been using a Scatt for a couple of months now and I must admit that so far, I got more frustration than benefits from this device.

I’m a smallbore prone shooter. I used my Scatt in my basement at ranges from 7 to 9 yards. I’ve always used my unit with the F coefficient set at zero.

The problem with my Scatt is that I get uncalled flyers and that my zero is very inconsistant. I’ll shoot say 6 or 7 10s in a row and then my next shot will be a 7, at 11 o’clock. Usually, my next shot will be a 2, always in the same direction. Then, my next shot will be right back in the 10. Sometimes, my zero will change in a less important way but still, it’s frustrating to alway have to adjust the zero with the mouse every 3 or 4 shots. Everytime I shoot a 9 or a 8, I have to ask myself if it's me of the Scatt...very annoying.

At first, I thought that my problem had to do with reflections on the floor (I shoot from a floating floor) and I followed the advices from the Scatt website (http://www.scatt.com/downloads/scatt_prone_set.pdf) but it didn'y help at all.

I wrote to the people from Scatt but I never got a reply.

I need your help and advices : do you have any idea of what might be wrong with my unit ?

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:49 pm

could it be that your mount wiggles a little on your gun and it is causing the zero to change when you jar it? I have a NOPTEL and this can be a problem with it.
I don't find the trainers very useful to train with on a regular basis. I got so I was good with it but it did not translate very well into improved scores when I was live firing. What it did do, was show me if I was making a fundamental error in my technique and I learned that, primarily from watching the trace of the shot that is recorded on the computer. Two major errors, jerking the trigger and holding the gun up too long can be easily seen and diagnosed on a trainer, but I find it less useful and very frustrating trying to mimic a match, and keep score.

skylark (not logged in) · Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:49 am

What does the trace look like on the flyers?

If the mount's moved, I'd expect it to be centred on the "flyer". If it's centred on the bull with the shot away from it, I think it has to be something you are doing (though possibly unrealistically magnified).

Do you tend to have shots which are slightly at 11 o'clock when you shoot for real?

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:55 am

Paul wrote:I’ve been using a Scatt for a couple of months now and I must admit that so far, I got more frustration than benefits from this device.

I’m a smallbore prone shooter. I used my Scatt in my basement at ranges from 7 to 9 yards. I’ve always used my unit with the F coefficient set at zero.

The problem with my Scatt is that I get uncalled flyers and that my zero is very inconsistant. I’ll shoot say 6 or 7 10s in a row and then my next shot will be a 7, at 11 o’clock. Usually, my next shot will be a 2, always in the same direction. Then, my next shot will be right back in the 10. Sometimes, my zero will change in a less important way but still, it’s frustrating to alway have to adjust the zero with the mouse every 3 or 4 shots. Everytime I shoot a 9 or a 8, I have to ask myself if it's me of the Scatt...very annoying.

At first, I thought that my problem had to do with reflections on the floor (I shoot from a floating floor) and I followed the advices from the Scatt website (http://www.scatt.com/downloads/scatt_prone_set.pdf) but it didn'y help at all.

I wrote to the people from Scatt but I never got a reply.

I need your help and advices : do you have any idea of what might be wrong with my unit ?

It's difficult to say but it could be a lighting issue. I use a halogen spotlight with mine and it works fine. It would also be interesting to see how those changes affected the traces. Do the traces and the derived data look the same for the good and the poor shots ? And does the yellow cross move as well as the shot (i.e. are they coincident) ? I can't remember what f-coefficient I use but it's written down (edit just checked and I'm pretty sure its 25)

You also need to ignore the score. Scatt is not a device for scoring so forget that 'outcome'. Focus on the shot process, trigger release, follow through etc. Addionally the scatt can be very useful for evaluating small changes in position or equipment setup to see if that improves or worsens for example the hold.

Post up a trace or tow here to see what folks can suggest.

Rob.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:38 am

Not sure if this will help, but do you run the Optical Sensor Adjustment each time you setup ?

Thanks,

Steve.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:14 am

Do you have anybody locally with the same model Scatt who you could borrow a sensor from.

When you get the flyer, followed by a worse one, is it always at 11 o'clock or does it move around.

When you get them, is the whole trace offset or do you just get an additional movement on firing.

Are you dry firing or live firing at the same time.

I presume that you are using the normal barrel mount and that it is all tight.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:41 am

Thanks to all for your replies.

could it be that your mount wiggles a little on your gun and it is causing the zero to change when you jar it?

No, I always make 100% sure everything is tight. I also tape the wire of the sensor to the barrel to make sure it doesn't induce any movement.

Do you tend to have shots which are slightly at 11 o'clock when you shoot for real?

No, I only gave this as an example to show that when the shots start to wander, they usually do it in the same direction.

It's difficult to say but it could be a lighting issue. I use a halogen spotlight with mine and it works fine

That's also what I use.

You also need to ignore the score. Scatt is not a device for scoring so forget that 'outcome'

Seems to me that if your shots are not zeroed correctly, you loose a lot of info available from the Scatt (average steadiness in 10, etc)

Not sure if this will help, but do you run the Optical Sensor Adjustment each time you setup ?

Yes I do.

Do you have anybody locally with the same model Scatt who you could borrow a sensor from

I tried for that and I had almost the same results.

Are you dry firing or live firing at the same time

Dry firing only.

I attached a Scatt training file so that you can see what happens. Please, take a closer look at shot number 23, 24 and 25.

Thanks again for your help !

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:32 am

I see at least one problem. The trace is so jagged it is a certain sign to me that there is way too much IR from other heat sources. Incandescent light, furnace duct blowing air (either cooler or hotter than ambient). The jagged lines are like looking through a scope at mirage.

Try fluorescent light and only light from above the target. Re-site the training area away from heater ducts, etc. The trace should be smooth.

As far as the shots moving it appears they get worse and worse. That may not always be the case, but something is changing!

Is the target frame warming up from a high intensity light source?

All things to try.

Let us know.

Marcus

dlinden · Post by **dlinden** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:11 pm

I agree with the advice from Marcus. I experienced the same problem causing a jagged trace and it was completely due to lighting effects. I replaced everything with flourescents; at the target and over the rifle. Problem resolved. Additionally, a small barrier approximately 4 inches high placed at the midpoint between the barrel end and the target (on the floor) will control for consistency of the shot placement reading. I use a cardboard box that a rifle came packaged in because it is long side to side, but just a few inches high.

Dennis

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:30 am

Paul wrote:Thanks to all for your replies.

You also need to ignore the score. Scatt is not a device for scoring so forget that 'outcome'
Seems to me that if your shots are not zeroed correctly, you loose a lot of info available from the Scatt (average steadiness in 10, etc)

You can get equally useful info for some parameters, the 10a for example - steadyness in an area the size of the 10, same for 10.5. I do agree though, you ideally want it centred where the shots are going.

I attached a Scatt training file so that you can see what happens. Please, take a closer look at shot number 23, 24 and 25.

Thanks again for your help !

I can't look at the traces from where I am at the moment, but other folks have and have some good comments and suggestions.

Rob.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:18 am

Once again, thanks to all for your advices.

Is the target frame warming up from a high intensity light source?

No, there's no close source of heat.

I use a cardboard box that a rifle came packaged in because it is long side to side, but just a few inches high.

Looks like we had the same idea, that's exactly what I use too.

I will test with fluorescent lights for sure but could you please explain to me why, if the problem comes from lighting, that the changes in point of impact happen in a totally random way. Sometimes it's right at the beginning of my training session, sometimes it is much later, as you could see in the posted file (23rd shot)...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:58 pm

Have you checked the sights on your rifle are they tight or perhaps loose?

dlinden · Post by **dlinden** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:23 pm

You may have two problems: artifact from incandescent lighting and distorted signal pick-up at sensor. The latter can create odd, random shot placement recordings. This is due to secondary or delayed sensor readings from bounce off the floor if shooting in prone position. The recording is "confused" because there are multiple out of sync signals. By placing a barricade on the floor, this can be prevented. I tried a throw rug initially, but the low box was the solution for me. The jagged lines on your tracing are due to lighting effects, probably incandescent, but I also had problems from halogen and went all flourescent all the time.

I have had amazing results in my match perfromance due to training with the SCATT since last year. I view it as a tool, not a pretend match substitute. Would be happy to share my experiences if anyone interested.

Dennis

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:06 pm

OK, so I got myself some fluorescent lighting and I finally found some time for testing my Scatt with this type of light.

Just to make sure that my testing was valid, I shot 60 times from my rifle in my ESP machine rest. Everything went just fine: all of the 60 shots ended in the 10 (from 10.4 to 10.9). I thought my problems were over. Then, I decided to test something else: I moved the table from which I was testing the rifle 1’’ further from the target: the point of impact changed a lot !

To prove my point, here’s a Scatt file of my experiment: the first 5 shots are centered and then, I moved the table 1’’ further. Average for the first 5 shots: 10.8, average for the last 5 shots: 9.1 !

From what I understand, everytime I move just a little bit while I’m training in position, my zero changes significally.....is this normal ? Is this the way a Scatt should work ?

One last question for the Scatt experts: what exactly is the purpose of this adjutment ?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:18 pm

What you observed is normal. Because of the upward looking angle of the sensor, when you move backwards the sensor "sees" the center of the target lower than before and so the shots that you aimed at the center print high. If you had moved the table closer the shots would have been lower on the target.
The effect may be somewhat dependent on how close the target is to the sensor in the first place.
The rotary switch is used to change the phase of IR diodes on the target for when multiple Scatt targets are used next to each other. The sensor does not know which one it is looking at otherwise.
Glad you got the light thing sorted.

Marcus

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:05 am

What you observed is normal

Marcus,

You mean that whenever the distance between the target frame and the sensor varies by as little as 1'' it is normal that the point of impact moves from 10.8 to 9.1 ? All of the Scatt units work this way ? I can't believe it...If it's the case then I'm lucky to shoot prone only, I just can't imagine the variations of the points of impact from a standing position.

The effect may be somewhat dependent on how close the target is to the sensor in the first place

Do you think it's the closer the better ?

Again, thanks for your help.

Paul

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:47 am

What distance was the test shot?

I would think that the farther the target the better.

Marcus

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:24 am

Paul wrote:To prove my point, here’s a Scatt file of my experiment: the first 5 shots are centered and then, I moved the table 1’’ further.

Sounds to me that moving the table was changing more than just the distance. Could it also have been changing the aiming point of the rifle (and Scatt).

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:17 am

What distance was the test shot?

7,5 meters

Sounds to me that moving the table was changing more than just the distance. Could it also have been changing the aiming point of the rifle (and Scatt).

David, no, I'm 100% positive that only the distance was changed.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:19 pm

For what its worth, I shoot offhand every day from about 12 feet away and have no problems as you describe.

How close to the end of the barrel are you mounting the sensor? Is it possible the sensor is too far back and that its view of the target is blocked partially by the barrel?

Maybe your floor is not level ;-)

Also, although its not my problem this time...thanks again to Marcus for always lending us a hand with Scatt issues here on the forum.

TargetTalk

My Scatt is driving me mad !

My Scatt is driving me mad !

Re: My Scatt is driving me mad !