I play 10m air rifle. Recently, I am having a difficulty in keeping the butt plate hooked. When I start aiming and try to relax all my muscles, especially right shoulder and left arm, the butt plate gradually gets out from the shoulder or uncontacted. As a result, I become unable to relax my left arm muscle because once I do, the rifle drops to the front sight direction.
I know some people use the benefit of shooting jacket in keeping the butt plate contacted at shoulder. But, I guess it is not the best and right way to handdle this problem because I see many olympic players having no problem of butt plate when they shoot without shooting jacket as well.
Thanks in advance.
How do you keep the butt plate hooked when aiming?
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How do you keep the butt plate hooked when aiming?
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Last edited by 10mair on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not sure what you mean by 'unhooked'. You should be pulling the gun into the shoulder so it just stays there. I can only suggest either the balance is wrong (very nose heavy) or your butt plate is not fitting.
Post up some pictures and more details, may help folks offer some better suggestions.
Rob.
Post up some pictures and more details, may help folks offer some better suggestions.
Rob.
Right. But, isn't it against the ISSF regulation? Can I see a pic of your buttplate plz? Thanks for your reply anyway.BGC wrote:Don't let the buttplate construction be a limit.
(My buttplate is home made out of two different buttplates.)
Perhaps you need to modify it a little to suit you.
Have you tried to add some spacers at the upper part of the buttplate?
First, to stay within the confines of the rules:
The buttplate itself can be no more than 153mm top to bottom.
The dish of the buttplate cannot exceed 20m depth.
The lowest point of the buttplate can be no lower than 220mm below the centerline of the barrel.
The buttplate cannot be offset more than 15mm horizontally from the centerline of the barrel
The buttplate cannot be canted.
This is all covered on pages 307-309 of the current USAS rulebook.
Consider that with the limit of the 20mm dish the air rifle butt plate does not really have a "hook" so the buttplate never really hooks under the arm the way a smallbore free rifle will.
For the reason that the air rifle does not have a hook it is difficult to have a position that is completely relaxed through the shoulders. You will often find that you need to maintain some back pressure with the grip of the right hand to keep the butt of the rifle snug against the shoulder.
Next, due to the combination of the 220 mm drop from the center of the barrel and the 20 mm dish it can be difficult for a taller person, or a person with a longer neck to get the buttplate as low as might be ideal. This can make the problem you are experiencing worse.
A few things to try here: This looks like a well articulated buttplate, flatten out the lower tail, while adding more angle to the top extension. (keep in mind 20mm max dish). Next, if the adjustments allow for it make the buttplate vertically shorter. This will place butt higher in the shoulder but it appears this is where it wants to be so that would be fine.
The max weight of the rifle is 5.5kg (12.125 lbm) add weight to the butt of the rifle until the balance point is perhaps an inch (or less) ahead of the location of your left(supporting hand). Be sure to stay inside max allowable weight. (Solder wrapped around the support for the cheekpiece or stick on wheel weights stuck to the underside of the cheekpiece or a similar location can be used for this.)
You have not mentioned if you are using riser blocks. Going back to the part about tall people or people with long necks can have problem getting the butt low enough. If you study the positions of the elite shooters you will notice many of them are using say 15mm or so of sight elevation. This has the geometric effect of lowering the entire rifle, and the butt along with it.
Anyhow, these are a few thoughts. Good luck with it.
Cheers,
'Dude
The buttplate itself can be no more than 153mm top to bottom.
The dish of the buttplate cannot exceed 20m depth.
The lowest point of the buttplate can be no lower than 220mm below the centerline of the barrel.
The buttplate cannot be offset more than 15mm horizontally from the centerline of the barrel
The buttplate cannot be canted.
This is all covered on pages 307-309 of the current USAS rulebook.
Consider that with the limit of the 20mm dish the air rifle butt plate does not really have a "hook" so the buttplate never really hooks under the arm the way a smallbore free rifle will.
For the reason that the air rifle does not have a hook it is difficult to have a position that is completely relaxed through the shoulders. You will often find that you need to maintain some back pressure with the grip of the right hand to keep the butt of the rifle snug against the shoulder.
Next, due to the combination of the 220 mm drop from the center of the barrel and the 20 mm dish it can be difficult for a taller person, or a person with a longer neck to get the buttplate as low as might be ideal. This can make the problem you are experiencing worse.
A few things to try here: This looks like a well articulated buttplate, flatten out the lower tail, while adding more angle to the top extension. (keep in mind 20mm max dish). Next, if the adjustments allow for it make the buttplate vertically shorter. This will place butt higher in the shoulder but it appears this is where it wants to be so that would be fine.
The max weight of the rifle is 5.5kg (12.125 lbm) add weight to the butt of the rifle until the balance point is perhaps an inch (or less) ahead of the location of your left(supporting hand). Be sure to stay inside max allowable weight. (Solder wrapped around the support for the cheekpiece or stick on wheel weights stuck to the underside of the cheekpiece or a similar location can be used for this.)
You have not mentioned if you are using riser blocks. Going back to the part about tall people or people with long necks can have problem getting the butt low enough. If you study the positions of the elite shooters you will notice many of them are using say 15mm or so of sight elevation. This has the geometric effect of lowering the entire rifle, and the butt along with it.
Anyhow, these are a few thoughts. Good luck with it.
Cheers,
'Dude
Thanks a lot! Yes I am using 30 mm sight elevation block both for rear and front sight. The ISSF rule says that the front sight should not exceed 60mm height. 30mm is the max height I can get for my rifle.justadude wrote:First, to stay within the confines of the rules:
The buttplate itself can be no more than 153mm top to bottom.
The dish of the buttplate cannot exceed 20m depth.
The lowest point of the buttplate can be no lower than 220mm below the centerline of the barrel.
The buttplate cannot be offset more than 15mm horizontally from the centerline of the barrel
The buttplate cannot be canted........................
Anyhow, these are a few thoughts. Good luck with it.
Cheers,
'Dude
wondered about his "...because I see many olympic players having no problem of butt plate when they shoot without shooting jacket", cause I have yet to see an 'olympic player' even training without the jacket: maybe his olympic players are more casual than those I have encountered over the last few decades.tsokasn wrote:...Didn't quite understood but you are using a shooting jacket,correct?
A few things to be aware of:
You say
If you have 30mm worth of riser blocks in, than that is plenty, and unless you have an exceptionally long neck likely too much. There could easily be other defects in the position. Depending on the rifle (looks like an FWB from the picture) with 30mm in you could easily be past the 60mm limit already.
Regardless of where the center of gravity is, I suspect you need to flatten the bottom portion of the buttplate some and allow the butt to rest higher on the shoulder. Probably slide your support hand further out on the stock to lower the natural point of aim some.
Regarding the comment about working without a jacket. There are a few training pictures around of some of better European shooters studying position development without a jacket or trousers on. (A discussion even in "Ways of the Rifle".) The theory here is that it better allows the shooter and coach to see how the rifle and position are fitting together. This is not done a lot, primarily valuable when setting up a new rifle or after some other major change. Final tuning is always done fully dressed for competition.
'Dude
You say
If you look carefully at rule 7.4.2.7 (c) it reads "from the center of the sight ring or post to center of the bore" Now, 60mm is quite a bit, works out to a touch under 2.5 inches (2.362" to be exact)The ISSF rule says that the front sight should not exceed 60mm height.
If you have 30mm worth of riser blocks in, than that is plenty, and unless you have an exceptionally long neck likely too much. There could easily be other defects in the position. Depending on the rifle (looks like an FWB from the picture) with 30mm in you could easily be past the 60mm limit already.
Regardless of where the center of gravity is, I suspect you need to flatten the bottom portion of the buttplate some and allow the butt to rest higher on the shoulder. Probably slide your support hand further out on the stock to lower the natural point of aim some.
Regarding the comment about working without a jacket. There are a few training pictures around of some of better European shooters studying position development without a jacket or trousers on. (A discussion even in "Ways of the Rifle".) The theory here is that it better allows the shooter and coach to see how the rifle and position are fitting together. This is not done a lot, primarily valuable when setting up a new rifle or after some other major change. Final tuning is always done fully dressed for competition.
'Dude
Your replies help a lot! I have FWB 700 Universal Model. Having a 30mm block does not exceed the 60mm rule. I measured the height from the center of the bore to the center of the sight ring. It's about 57 mm total.justadude wrote:A few things to be aware of:
You sayIf you look carefully at rule 7.4.2.7 (c) it reads "from the center of the sight ring or post to center of the bore" Now, 60mm is quite a bit, works out to a touch under 2.5 inches (2.362" to be exact)The ISSF rule says that the front sight should not exceed 60mm height.
..............................
'Dude
Thanks a lot again!
10m
Meant to get some comments out a few days ago but I have been tied up.
So you are working with a FWB 700 Universal. This helps for two reasons, this tells me which butt plate you have and also a little more about the stock. For all intents and purposes the stock on the 700 Universal is the grandson of the stock on the Model 600 which has a rather deep forend.
This next part is tough without being right there to look at you in 3D but I will make some educated guesses and recommendations.
First, Take a large sheet of paper that you can lay the rifle out on and draw two parallel lines 220mm apart. Lay the rifle down so the centerline of the barrel is on one line and set the bottom tail of the butt plate so that it is at the 220mm from barrel centerline maximum drop.
I had made reference to flattening the lower tail of the buttplate. This butt won't do that but in some ways that is a good thing. Just make sure the top part is set so you don't have more than the allowed 20mm of dish to the plate.
Next, for this stock 30mm riser block height is awfully high, you might even be past working limits of the cheek piece adjustment system. Back off to 15mm or so if you can, this is a happier mid range.
Now, I suspect the reason you want to pop the butt very high in the shoulder is due to the combination of the deep forend and shooting off the top of your fist. I also guess you might have longer arms and you have your fist pulled way back by the trigger guard. Try pushing your fist 2 or so inches out on the foreend. Experiment with different placements. Pushing your fist out lowers the support in the front so will also cause you to lower the butt on the shoulder.
As you have probably seen, some people shoot off the open palm, this certainly lowers the rifle with respect to the body but takes some getting used to and for people with longer necks just may never be satisfactorily relaxed.
Realize also that on the air rifle this is a butt plate, not a hook and the rules simply do not allow the plate to go low enough to hook into the arm pit (at least not for most people) Don't be afraid to let the butt rest more on the front of the shoulder. Yes, you will have to pull back a little with the trigger hand but FWB makes a pretty well thought out butt plate so it should not take much effort. (Having a jacket with good rubber on the shoulder helps a bunch too!) The real key is getting the butt in the same place for each shot.
Good Luck
'Dude
Meant to get some comments out a few days ago but I have been tied up.
So you are working with a FWB 700 Universal. This helps for two reasons, this tells me which butt plate you have and also a little more about the stock. For all intents and purposes the stock on the 700 Universal is the grandson of the stock on the Model 600 which has a rather deep forend.
This next part is tough without being right there to look at you in 3D but I will make some educated guesses and recommendations.
First, Take a large sheet of paper that you can lay the rifle out on and draw two parallel lines 220mm apart. Lay the rifle down so the centerline of the barrel is on one line and set the bottom tail of the butt plate so that it is at the 220mm from barrel centerline maximum drop.
I had made reference to flattening the lower tail of the buttplate. This butt won't do that but in some ways that is a good thing. Just make sure the top part is set so you don't have more than the allowed 20mm of dish to the plate.
Next, for this stock 30mm riser block height is awfully high, you might even be past working limits of the cheek piece adjustment system. Back off to 15mm or so if you can, this is a happier mid range.
Now, I suspect the reason you want to pop the butt very high in the shoulder is due to the combination of the deep forend and shooting off the top of your fist. I also guess you might have longer arms and you have your fist pulled way back by the trigger guard. Try pushing your fist 2 or so inches out on the foreend. Experiment with different placements. Pushing your fist out lowers the support in the front so will also cause you to lower the butt on the shoulder.
As you have probably seen, some people shoot off the open palm, this certainly lowers the rifle with respect to the body but takes some getting used to and for people with longer necks just may never be satisfactorily relaxed.
Realize also that on the air rifle this is a butt plate, not a hook and the rules simply do not allow the plate to go low enough to hook into the arm pit (at least not for most people) Don't be afraid to let the butt rest more on the front of the shoulder. Yes, you will have to pull back a little with the trigger hand but FWB makes a pretty well thought out butt plate so it should not take much effort. (Having a jacket with good rubber on the shoulder helps a bunch too!) The real key is getting the butt in the same place for each shot.
Good Luck
'Dude