For 10M AP, when do you start tracking/focusing on the front sight?
Straight from the bench?
When it passes the black target?
When pistol get to the top?
When do you start tracking front sight?
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David Levene
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Starting from the bench.
At the start of the lift the top of the front sight will be lower than the top of the rear sight. I lift above the black, when the top of the front sight is above the top of the rear sight, before dropping down to my aiming area when the tops of the front and rear sights are level.
At the start of the lift the top of the front sight will be lower than the top of the rear sight. I lift above the black, when the top of the front sight is above the top of the rear sight, before dropping down to my aiming area when the tops of the front and rear sights are level.
I start focusing on the front sight as I start settling into my holding area.
When I raise the pistol I have no awareness of the front sight. As I start lowering the pistol into the area I become more aware of the front sight without paying any attention to it until it comes into the holding area at which time I have full focus on the front sight.
Your eyes only have limited ability to fully focus on the front sight. Usually about 6-8 seconds. As such you need to delay the full focus on the sights so that the shot will break during that period when you can still focus 100% on the front sights.
Good luck
When I raise the pistol I have no awareness of the front sight. As I start lowering the pistol into the area I become more aware of the front sight without paying any attention to it until it comes into the holding area at which time I have full focus on the front sight.
Your eyes only have limited ability to fully focus on the front sight. Usually about 6-8 seconds. As such you need to delay the full focus on the sights so that the shot will break during that period when you can still focus 100% on the front sights.
Good luck
I think there are some things a man just has to develop for himself.
I concur greatly with Mr. Levene in the point that he raises about having the sights lined up off the bench. Reading carefully, I hear him saying that his wrist is in a fixed position from the time he comes off the bench. Both the wind age and elevation of the sights are pretty much stable. Because the pivot point is the shoulder joint as you raise the pistol and not the eye, the sights may appear different after the pistol is raised.
I know of shooters that raise the pistol and then move the wrist to get the sights adjusted just above the target. My concern is that the wrist position might be a little different from shoot to shoot. Variation we do not want. Hence, I concur with Mr. Levene.
I try to get my self and the weapon aligned while on the bench. But my shoot process starts just above the bullseye. If I am way out of whack, I abort and restart the process. Assuming I am I pretty much there (aligned front sight, rear sight,and location on the target above the bullseye); my process begins.
The process includes the holding front and rear sight alignment, close attention to the front sight, the initial pressure to the trigger, and the slow lower into the final aiming area just below the bull, the taking the shoot very soon after reaching the aiming area. During that slow lowering, the intense alignment of the sights is maintained.
I know this process works for me; if I actually do this properly. Unfortunately, this takes very intense training on these elements. It is very easy to obtain the alignment above the target and let your attention change to the front sight-bullseye alignment, hence one really no longer knows where the front sight-rear sight alignment is. Or to break the wrist instead of the smoothly increasing the trigger pressure...
Some other descriptions of when the intense sight alignment takes place may be as valid.
I concur greatly with Mr. Levene in the point that he raises about having the sights lined up off the bench. Reading carefully, I hear him saying that his wrist is in a fixed position from the time he comes off the bench. Both the wind age and elevation of the sights are pretty much stable. Because the pivot point is the shoulder joint as you raise the pistol and not the eye, the sights may appear different after the pistol is raised.
I know of shooters that raise the pistol and then move the wrist to get the sights adjusted just above the target. My concern is that the wrist position might be a little different from shoot to shoot. Variation we do not want. Hence, I concur with Mr. Levene.
I try to get my self and the weapon aligned while on the bench. But my shoot process starts just above the bullseye. If I am way out of whack, I abort and restart the process. Assuming I am I pretty much there (aligned front sight, rear sight,and location on the target above the bullseye); my process begins.
The process includes the holding front and rear sight alignment, close attention to the front sight, the initial pressure to the trigger, and the slow lower into the final aiming area just below the bull, the taking the shoot very soon after reaching the aiming area. During that slow lowering, the intense alignment of the sights is maintained.
I know this process works for me; if I actually do this properly. Unfortunately, this takes very intense training on these elements. It is very easy to obtain the alignment above the target and let your attention change to the front sight-bullseye alignment, hence one really no longer knows where the front sight-rear sight alignment is. Or to break the wrist instead of the smoothly increasing the trigger pressure...
Some other descriptions of when the intense sight alignment takes place may be as valid.
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luftskytter-
The important thing may be that this discussion makes us aware of this.
Improvement is related to sorting all these things ot rather than just letting them happen. I have to admit that I've paid little attention to this detail. So picking up a gun to "see what happens" tells me I do a rough alignment on the bench before moving my attention to the target.
There are two processes worth looking at here:
1) The ability to "zoom" vision between overall awareness and attention to detail. I imagine this is what a cat does when hunting mice in a field: waiting while looking at the overall picture until something moves, and then zooming in on detail. I seem to move from focus on the gun at the bench, via overall when the raising the gun and then to focus on the sights when they are in the aiming area. Thus there's little "tracking" of the gun, and it doesn't "pop into" my field of vision when raised: I think this is a good thing to make things "flow" nicely. But that's my version....
2) The ability to "lock" wrist alignment which means that after the gun is raised, there's only need for minor sight adjustment even if you don't look at it all the time while raising your arm. I believe that most shooters become pretty good at this.
Finally there's making these things automatic (like they would be if you never thought about it). And obviously, you shouldn't be waving the sights around after the gun is raised. Secure, confident action is always important.
Improvement is related to sorting all these things ot rather than just letting them happen. I have to admit that I've paid little attention to this detail. So picking up a gun to "see what happens" tells me I do a rough alignment on the bench before moving my attention to the target.
There are two processes worth looking at here:
1) The ability to "zoom" vision between overall awareness and attention to detail. I imagine this is what a cat does when hunting mice in a field: waiting while looking at the overall picture until something moves, and then zooming in on detail. I seem to move from focus on the gun at the bench, via overall when the raising the gun and then to focus on the sights when they are in the aiming area. Thus there's little "tracking" of the gun, and it doesn't "pop into" my field of vision when raised: I think this is a good thing to make things "flow" nicely. But that's my version....
2) The ability to "lock" wrist alignment which means that after the gun is raised, there's only need for minor sight adjustment even if you don't look at it all the time while raising your arm. I believe that most shooters become pretty good at this.
Finally there's making these things automatic (like they would be if you never thought about it). And obviously, you shouldn't be waving the sights around after the gun is raised. Secure, confident action is always important.
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Retired
I look at my sights first as they raise up through my field of vision on the raise. I will only concentrate on them however during the final descent into the target.
Aligning the sights at the bench is of minimal value because the sights won't be aligned on the target because the angles will change. I agree with fixing the wrist in the right place but in training you determine that by learning where the right place is by trial and error through raising and lowering. And of your course your grip should be such that your NPA has the gun pointing in the right direction and you will be consistently taking up your grip.
As above, if anything feels or looks wrong then abort.
Rob.
Aligning the sights at the bench is of minimal value because the sights won't be aligned on the target because the angles will change. I agree with fixing the wrist in the right place but in training you determine that by learning where the right place is by trial and error through raising and lowering. And of your course your grip should be such that your NPA has the gun pointing in the right direction and you will be consistently taking up your grip.
As above, if anything feels or looks wrong then abort.
Rob.
Intense Alignment!
I like the way Pete S phrases things … I look at the pistol and the sights to make sure my wrist is locked and coming up on straight on the target but to avoid eye stain I don’t concentrate on the front sight yet. Only when the sight goes above the bull and I am coming down to 6 o’clock do I do “intense” alignment. (At the same time I am trying to apply 400 grams of pressure before I make my shot.)
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Fred Mannis
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David, I have tried your process, but have never been able to get it to work for me. Assuming you stop your raise when the sights are close to the top of the card, how much higher is the top of the blade compared to the top of the rear sight? (Assuming a normal AP sight radius)David Levene wrote:Starting from the bench.
At the start of the lift the top of the front sight will be lower than the top of the rear sight. I lift above the black, when the top of the front sight is above the top of the rear sight, before dropping down to my aiming area when the tops of the front and rear sights are level.
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David Levene
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- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
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I actually raise to about 2ft above the black. At that point I would guess that about half of the front sight is above the top of the rear sight.Fred Mannis wrote:David, I have tried your process, but have never been able to get it to work for me. Assuming you stop your raise when the sights are close to the top of the card, how much higher is the top of the blade compared to the top of the rear sight? (Assuming a normal AP sight radius)
Sorry to be a bit vague on this but the exact amount does not matter. What is important is that, without any (concious) wrist adjustment, the sights are level by the time I have dropped down into my aiming area.
The wrist angle is set before I start my raise, by muscle memory / experience rather than visually.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
I raise no more than an inch
I raise no more than an inch. I find this moment to be very critical. I don't want to waste time at this point. I prefer to 'linger' at 6 o'clock and get my alignment right. I also make intense focus on the upside down U formed between the white line between the front and rear sights AND above the sights under the bull.