Training to visulize the shot process

[Fred Mannis]

I always enjoy reading two anonymous guests dueling with each other :-(

[2650 Plus]

Steve, in addition to rehersals ,the subconcious can also be trained by exposing it to imagies that reinforce what the shooter wants to see during the shot process. Or am I out in left field on this ? Bonnie Harmon, Amu coach for a time after I left used the center hit concept as a visualization device for training ond reinforcing positive immages for the shot delivery process. I personally use the idea demonstrated by the posting JackH placed just above this one with a key to what he recommends. Mine was set up for center hold rather than the sub six illustrated. Comments please Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Alf]

I don't think "guest" is off base. I would like to hear from legitamate "top level" shooters. We don't have any as of yet. I know Steve shot in a WC as an MQS shooter paying his own way, that is great. I would love hear from past or present "elite" shooters. I consider myself a beginner. Alf in the UK

[Russ]

Why not go the whole hog and imply that there are no international shooters on this forum?
Humph!

It is doesn’t matter how many international shooters on this forum...
More important is why he or she become International or Olympic Style Athlete!
Also is important for Olympic style shooter his Goal...and his approach to achieve this Goal. Goal in same time can be associate with yours score performance and measured by current performance of top shooters on International level. Your motivation is important also!
As important as your a "tool" to achieve your own success.
If some one happy to show up at a shooting range with top priced ISSF gun and performed over 4-5 years in a row same lousy scores ...this is can be True international pistol promoter, or may be True international Gun collector , it is good for advertisement too :).
We do not recognize Olympic style shooters by they highly priced ISSF -style items such as pistols and equipment but by the SPIRIT to fight for the GOLD (with Respectful scores :)!
This is my 0.1 cent
Russ
True Recreational Shooter with Olympic style pistol.

P.S
Some words about Olympic Spirit....

Hungarian shooter Karoly Takacs was part of a world-champion pistol shooting team in 1938 when he lost his right hand in an army grenade explosion. A decade later, after teaching himself to fire left-handed, he won two consecutive gold medals in rapid-fire pistol at the 1948 and 1952 Games.
At the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, a Chinese female competitor Zhang Shan won the gold in a mixed-sex skeet event, the last Olympics before women were barred from competing against men.

[John Ariani]

Alf posted:

I don't think "guest" is off base. I would like to hear from legitamate "top level" shooters. We don't have any as of yet.

I hope that David M is not logging on during this - he would (should) be highly offended - as I'm sure would others who we may or may not know background to.

[bryan]

Thanks bill.
I dont think russ was saying there are no top shooters on TT, just they arent asking that type of question, its the beginners and intermediates that are. Top shooters are well past this type of theory.
As for looking at a target, Im with russ. By the time you are ready to use visualisation in your shot plan, you are past needing a target to prompt you, you need to feel the shot as well, bit hard to have a picture of that!
So sorry Mr wong, and welcome to TT. The target can be used to focus to a specific place, but it might as well be a match box! the target is irrelevant.
So I would not recommend this to most people at any time, but there would always be the acception.

I think davidM would agree with Russ, when was the last time he asked a question, excluding technical ones! lol

One issue I see is different pistol events require a different approach. what has been discussed looks good for slow fire. I think somewhat different to timed events.

regards bryan

[2650 Plus]

reinforce problem of switching attention from perfect sight alignment to perfect attention of the "prfect target[Russes post] I see this as a problem and use the attachment provided by Jackh instead as this is much closer to what I want to see [attachment I am refering to is two posts above thjs one] Bonnie Harmon ,Head coach at AMU after I left used the center ten concept to reinforce the positive approach to the shot process, Buljong was there during this time and did some pretty spectular shooting during his tenure. Neverthe less I wanted to see and reinforce the subconcious image of perfect sight allignment and a solid hold more than the center ten because the tens come when the sights are alligned.and are problimatical when they are not. I didn't use the picture refered to as a distraction but rather as a device to train the subconcious elements of the shot process and to reinforce that training just before actually delivering the shot on target. Thanks Russ Steve and Coach Wong

[Russ]

Thank you, Bryan.
It is nice to have some one who can understand my "ESL style" :)
Russ

[Russ]

reinforce problem of switching attention from perfect sight alignment to perfect attention of the "prfect target[Russes post] I see this as a problem and use the attachment provided by Jackh instead as this is much closer to what I want to see [attachment I am refering to is two posts above thjs one] Bonnie Harmon ,Head coach at AMU after I left used the center ten concept to reinforce the positive approach to the shot process, Buljong was there during this time and did some pretty spectular shooting during his tenure. Neverthe less I wanted to see and reinforce the subconcious image of perfect sight allignment and a solid hold more than the center ten because the tens come when the sights are alligned.and are problimatical when they are not. I didn't use the picture refered to as a distraction but rather as a device to train the subconcious elements of the shot process and to reinforce that training just before actually delivering the shot on target.
Thanks Russ Steve and Coach Wong

Thank you for Bryan too, he said and point our attention in to right way: "you need to feel the shot as well, bit hard to have a picture of that!"
and ..."issue I see is different pistol events require a different approach"...

[Spencer]

And Bryan has many years of international experience including Olympics, albeit in another ISSF discipline.
He undoubtedly has lots to offer when it comes to match planning, mental preparation, etc.
Credit where credit is due.

Spencer

[jackh]

I like to close eyes and setup my hold by feel as a training aid, even in practice. I try to feel steady in the body and hold with the sights aligned. Then when I turn my head and open my eyes, I should find the sights all but ready to go.

Staged.

(I like that term I started. It describes where I want to end up after conscious preparations and just before I begin the hopefully unconscious shot flow. Actually, with learning and practice, even the setup will become somewhat automatic.)

[2650 Plus]

Steve, your last paragraph that delt with the possibility that the bottom five shooters were having trouble because they were worring about the wrong things seems to be the most likley identification of the problem I couldnt come to grips with. Hell, I couldn't even afford to spend the time with them because I had to get the team read for an upcoming match. That put me in the position of having to concentrate my efforts on the most promising of the group. The fact that I knew I had not given the lower performing shooters the time they really needed has bothered me for years. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Steve, your last paragraph that delt with the possibility that the bottom five shooters were having trouble because they were worring about the wrong things seems to be the most likley identification of the problem I couldnt come to grips with. Hell, I couldn't even afford to spend the time with them because I had to get the team read for an upcoming match. That put me in the position of having to concentrate my efforts on the most promising of the group. The fact that I knew I had not given the lower performing shooters the time they really needed has bothered me for years. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Steve Swartz]

Bill:

Sounds like you regret not doing more for the guys who didn't get it. I know a guy with your "road miles" knows that we all have a limited amount of time and effort to give to others.

Quite a few folks just have a different way of needing to look at things- therefore, the old "tried and true" methods of explaining/showing won't work and you need to try a variety of (sometimes odd) ways of showing/explaining. Some new shooters can be very stubborn (not on purpose) and won't take very quickly to the training they get- me, I had to *understand* stuff before I could *trust* it. Of course, the standard explanations weren't good enough for me. I was my own worst enemy. This can be true for a lot of guys.

I don't think the stubborn ones expect a coach to give them extra time just because they are stubborn. I did run into a couple of folks who were able to give me "extra homework" though and that helped!

Steve Swartz

[2650 Plus]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember a picture very like Jackh's posting in the USAMU Pistol Marksmanship manual. In fact I produced a picture very much like it while I was assigned to the unit For the exact reason to post in the manual. This one is a somewhat later version of the one I made. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

There is one true international shooter on the forum altho at the moment he is characterizing himself in a different manner. He goes by the nick name of Russ. Be nice, Shoot good. Maybe someday you could be an international shooter. Bill Horton

[Tallahassee]

My 10M AP shooting has "plateaued" at about 540.

Just for diversion, I want to get an Ultra-dot for fun.

Just curious, would red dot shooting help my 10M AP shooting at all to break the "plateau"?

[Freepistol]

BILL- THIS IS COACH WONG AND I'M USING "ALL CAPS" AS MY EYES ARE NOT WHAT THEY USE TO BE, BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AT 70 YEARS NOW. I WANT YOU TO KNOW STEVE SWARTZ IS RIGHT ON WITH HIS SUGGESTIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO HELP YOU GET WHERE YOU ARE TRYING TO GO WITH YOUR ATHLETES. I WOULD ADD ONE CAVIAT TO ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID, HAVE YOUR ATHLETE/S PLACE A SINGLE SHOT "PERFECT 10" SHOT TARGET RIGHT BESIDE THEM TO REINFORECE THEIR THOUGHT PROCCESS JUST PRIOR TO THE "RAISE." THIS WILL DO 2 THINGS: 1) FOCUS ON NEXT "PERFECT" SHOT 2) HELP PREVENT TRYING TO SHOOT A 10 FOR THE 8 HE/SHE JUST SHOT. HOPE THIS HELPS COACH

E.C. "Coach" Wong
Asst. Nat'l Pistol Coach, (Ret.) USAS #0330
Nat'l Assoc of Shooting Sports Athletes (NASSA), CEO
2103 Wheaton Dr. / Richardson, TX 75081
O972-234-8780 / C214-477-9592
E-Mail: ecjopcwong@cs.com, / Web Site: www.nassa.org

Welcome to TT, Coach Wong

[paulo]

I don't know if numbers are available from NRA, but it is easy to understand that in competition shooting there is a distribution curve of skill level that can be identified by results in competition and corresponding class.
If you compare the results of your trainees, to these distribution results at a national level I believe you will have a more fair estimate of your trainees "success" or "failure" rate.
I don't believe you can extrapolate your coaching skills to the individual level with consequential results.
I wish I could have you for my trainer, sorry to say I would not make it to high master, but it would help me ad another perspective about shooting to my evolving shooting model.

Happy Shooting to ALL!!