1911 torquing ?

[peter s.]

Hello Everyone

Here's my problem..

I'm left handed and consistently hit to the right, at about 2 O'clock from the edge of the 10 to the 9 or 8 rings. The deflection is greatest w/ ball loads and nearly disappears w/ soft SWC loads. It also increases w/ fatigue. But the grouping is very consistent. I think that it results from the torque of the pistol. Because otherwise, my shot execution seems OK. I'm shooting in the low 90% in practice w/ my 22 in slow fire. And my dry firing doesn't show any jerking or pulling. I've tried a variety of grips, from the shallow Zins grip to deeper ones nearly in line w/ my forearm. The deep grips reduce the deflection but tend to pull the front sight to the right.

Any advice on how I can deal with this?

thnx

[Isabel1130]

My opinion is that you are anticipating the shot/recoil and the ball gun has a lot of recoil which makes this anticipation worse with the ball gun. The reason I think this is because I am left handed and if I am anticipating that is exactly where my shots go. Because you are left handed you think the gun torques and jumps up and to the right as it fires. It does not. It kicks straight back but the pressure of your hand on the left side of the gun means that the kick is pushing the gun up and to the right because your hand is applying pressure from the left. Your shots are probably breaking before the sights have settled back into the ten ring. A temporary fix for this if you do it consistently is to use a sub six hold with your ball gun and hold low left of the bull to get the shots to break in the middle. In order to fix it for good, you need to learn to pull the trigger more quickly and to be doing it after the sights are back in the ten ring, not before. That will be the ultimate fix for this problem which I assume is happening primarily in sustained fire. Isabel

[alb]

Actually, your pistol is recoiling up and clockwise. It recoils up because you are gripping it below the bore. It twists clockwise because 1911's generally have a left-hand twist barrel, so the bullet rotates counter-clockwise, causing the gun to twist clockwise (Newton's 3rd law of motion). For a left-hander, the gun rotates toward your thumb, rather than into the meat of your hand (I'm left-handed too). 1911's have left-hand twist barrels because it's better to have the gun twist into your hand, which is strong, vs. your thumb, which is weak, and most shooters are right-handed.

Heavier bullets and/or higher muzzle velocities and/or a lighter gun increase the torque effect. When you are tired, you don't grip the pistol as tightly, which allows the gun to twist more.

When I anticipate recoil, I shoot low and to the right, i.e., I'm fighting the recoil by pushing the gun down just before the shot is fired, and the clockwise twisting motion of the gun pulls my already moving arm to the right.

Try using the stock combat grips. Grip the pistol firmly with your middle finger (apply pressure with the tip of the finger to the side of the grip as well as pressing the front of the backstrap), and press the base of the backstrap along the left edge firmly into the point of the base of the hypothenar prominence. The tip of the middle finger pressing on the side of the grip acts like a fulcrum. The gun wants to twist clockwise over it. The base of the hypothenar prominence pressing into the backstrap at the very bottom and back of the left side of the backstrap acts as a lever that resists this twisting motion. When you do it right, it feels effortless, and you can relax the rest of your hand, which reduces shaking, and also seems to reduce the tendency to anticipate the recoil. Of course, you still have to pull the trigger straight back (see the thread on 'straight-back trigger pull').

For a right-handed shooter, the top of the base of the trigger finger acts as the fulcrum, and is much closer to the bore than the second finger. The other fingers on the grip act as a lever that resists the much weaker twisting force.

You have to get to the point where you can do all this consistently without conciously thinking about it.

Incidentally, all of my .22's have right-hand twist barrels.

Regards,

Al B.

[JamesH]

Could be stance, to some extent.
Try rotating everything a little to the left, ie move your foot positions.

Also, if I hunch over the shots go to the left (right for you).
Try standing up straighter.

[peter s.]

@alb I'd tried what you've recommended this afternoon, and it did help to center my groups, and provides good sight alignment. Though my RF groups went to hell.

So with your approach, is there any involvement of the thumb or other fingers? - it's only the tip of the middle finger that's pressing on the side of the pistol?

thnx for all the input.

[alb]

@alb I'd tried what you've recommended this afternoon, and it did help to center my groups, and provides good sight alignment. Though my RF groups went to hell.

So with your approach, is there any involvement of the thumb or other fingers? - it's only the tip of the middle finger that's pressing on the side of the pistol?

thnx for all the input.

I've been trying to keep my other fingers and the thenar and hypothenar muscles relaxed (you don't want to apply any leverage at all in the direction that the gun wants to rotate). I lay my thumb along the top of the grip panel. It's just along for the ride (you could press on the top of the grip panel to apply additional leverage counter to the gun's rotational force, but then you'd have the problem of trying to reproduce the same amount of pressure each time). The high thumb position is problematic for us lefties because it places the thumb very close to the point where it blocks the ejection port. It's also important to keep your elbow locked, and to pull the trigger straight back so that you aren't exerting 3.5 lbs. of force on the gun at an angle to the bore line. I suspect that a right-hander has to grip the .45 a lot more firmly than a left-hander because of the way that the gun wants to rotate.

It's interesting that most of the high masters that I know seem to do as well or somewhat better with the .45 than the .22, even though the trigger can be 1.5 lbs. lighter, and the recoil energy is about an order of magnitude less (roughly 0.2 ft.-lbs. for the .22 vs. roughly 3 ft.-lbs. for the .45, and about 5.7 ft.-lbs. for hardball). Because of the forces involved (the .22 wants to rotate in the opposite direction of the .45 because the .45 has a left-hand twist barrel and the .22 has a right-hand twist barrel), the grip technique for the .22 is fundamentally different than the grip technique for the .45. But, since the forces involved in shooting the .22 are so much smaller, it probably doesn't matter so much with the .22.

I got a Marvel conversion in August. This was a revelation for me. I discovered that even though it is inherently more accurate than the .45, and even though the triggers of my two guns are set up the same way, and even though the geometry of the two guns is the same, and even though the recoil energy in the Marvel is so much less than the .45, I was actually shooting the .45 better than the Marvel .22 (probably because the grip technique needs to be different). And I shoot the Pardini better than both the Marvel and the .45 (the grip angle is different, which makes the trigger technique different -- when I started shooting the .45 more, my scores with the Pardini got a lot worse -- when I figured out why, my Pardini scores started to improve).

The recoil energy of the .45 actually seems to help with learning to shoot it well. When you do it right, everything is balanced, and it feels effortless.

By the way, your RF groups probably got worse because you are consciously thinking about technique. You have to practice enough so that you can execute the shot smoothly without consciously thinking about technique. Shooting is a motor skill, and needs to be controlled by the cerebellum and the basal ganglia, which aren't accessible to your conscious mind. When you attempt to control your technique consciously, as you do when you are learning a new technique, the feedback loop that processes error corrections is much slower, which results in a much less fluid and accurate movement.

Regards,

Al B.

[peter s.]

Thanks

BTW does anyone make a RH twist match barrel for the 1911?

[Packard]

Have a friend take a photo of the top view of your grip while shooting and then post that image. It may give a clue to what is going on here.