I am having problems with my 50m Sight Picture. I started of shooting 25m and have no problems there but initially with Air Pistol I had a similar problem to now when I cannot get a good sub 6 sight picture.
I am now lining up the sights with the bottom of the target card which is not good as trying to release a shot at instant sight picture lines up with bottom of target card is not the right way but my mind/eyes dislike it if I have a clash of colours within the sight notches (we use green target frame boards). If I was to line up a normal sub 6 hold I get a combination of white target card and green target board in the notches due to the depth of the rear sight.
If I reduce the depth I find it very difficult to get a good sight picture as I prefer the wide and deep pictures to shallow and narrow.
Does anyone else have this problem?
Picture attached.
Free Pistol Sight Picture Problems
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Free Pistol Sight Picture Problems
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Quite frankly if those drawing represent what you are truly seeing---your rear sight is much too wide. If you change the rear sight width I would move until you have much less light on either side of your front post. I have recently switched to a sub six hold myself from a center hold with FP, and I think a hold on the bottom of the card is just an invitation to "snap" shooting. IMHO----"Doc" The Crotchety Ole Coach"
"trying to release a shot at instant sight picture lines up with bottom of target card"
You can't "ambush" the bull as it wanders by. Just squeeze the shot off keeping your sights aligned. Go to a sub six hold and don't worry too much about where the bull is.
"I find it very difficult to get a good sight picture as I prefer the wide and deep pictures."
So change! Where is it written that you have to do it in a way that doesn't work.
Rover-The Crotchety Old Bastard
You can't "ambush" the bull as it wanders by. Just squeeze the shot off keeping your sights aligned. Go to a sub six hold and don't worry too much about where the bull is.
"I find it very difficult to get a good sight picture as I prefer the wide and deep pictures."
So change! Where is it written that you have to do it in a way that doesn't work.
Rover-The Crotchety Old Bastard
There is a post a couple down from yours that mentions this site:
http://www.hlberg.dk/eurosimulator/shooting_usa.html
I think this is a great trainer for new shooters (and others) to establish a mental picture of what should be going on.
I would have a look at the "Basic Revolver" section. It will give you a pretty good idea what your six o'clock sight picture should look like. You also have the option of adjusting the "sights".
Good luck!
http://www.hlberg.dk/eurosimulator/shooting_usa.html
I think this is a great trainer for new shooters (and others) to establish a mental picture of what should be going on.
I would have a look at the "Basic Revolver" section. It will give you a pretty good idea what your six o'clock sight picture should look like. You also have the option of adjusting the "sights".
Good luck!
COOL! Highly experience pistol shooters, please criticize!
I shoot a sub-6 hold (as do most Top Free Pistol Shooters) and I split the difference between the bottom of the black and the bottom of the target. I used to average in the mid 80s when I was much (!) younger and had a personal best of 97 (the hard way, with a 7 on the last shot-I could not stand the pressure!)
On the game mentioned below, I set the elevation at +34 and set the front sight as described above. That resulted in mostly 10s and a 9 or two.
Give that a try and you will see the advantage of using that split-the-difference hold for your aiming area.
Then, in dry fire, learn to love the motion of the front sight as you squeeze, pull, move or whatever, the trigger to the rear with out the sight changing its movement on release. Do this at home against a blank, white wall for a while to determine whether your trigger release has any effect on the motion of the sight.
When you have mastered releasing the trigger without disturbing the motion of the front sight (and that is a real mental Bitch to overcome), add a proportional target such as an NRA #B40 at 10 meters or the very reduced bullseye for the 5 meter air target.
Practice dry fire with the sub-6 hold until it is second (or first) nature.
When you then go to the live fire range, use the same hold and shoot AT LEAST 50 shots to determine where your grouping falls. You only care about the group at this point. After you fire about 50 shots, evaluate the group and adjust your elevation to move the group in to the center of the black. This presumes that your group is virtually all seven ring or better... a few flyers outside the 7 are BFUs - don't consider those unless a pattern forms.
Remember - NO ONE can hold completely still! Your group will be only as good as your hold and your absolute belief that, once aligned and the trigger pull initiated, there is nothing you can do consciously to improve the shot (except put the gun down and start over).
LOVE THE MOVEMENT OF THE FRONT SIGHT AN ALLOW THE GUN TO FIRE!!!
Remember "Cogito erg sum."- "I think, therefore I am."
In shooting, "Cogito ergo requiro." - I think, therefore I miss!!
Let the discussion begin!
Tillman in Florida (69 this month)
On the game mentioned below, I set the elevation at +34 and set the front sight as described above. That resulted in mostly 10s and a 9 or two.
Give that a try and you will see the advantage of using that split-the-difference hold for your aiming area.
Then, in dry fire, learn to love the motion of the front sight as you squeeze, pull, move or whatever, the trigger to the rear with out the sight changing its movement on release. Do this at home against a blank, white wall for a while to determine whether your trigger release has any effect on the motion of the sight.
When you have mastered releasing the trigger without disturbing the motion of the front sight (and that is a real mental Bitch to overcome), add a proportional target such as an NRA #B40 at 10 meters or the very reduced bullseye for the 5 meter air target.
Practice dry fire with the sub-6 hold until it is second (or first) nature.
When you then go to the live fire range, use the same hold and shoot AT LEAST 50 shots to determine where your grouping falls. You only care about the group at this point. After you fire about 50 shots, evaluate the group and adjust your elevation to move the group in to the center of the black. This presumes that your group is virtually all seven ring or better... a few flyers outside the 7 are BFUs - don't consider those unless a pattern forms.
Remember - NO ONE can hold completely still! Your group will be only as good as your hold and your absolute belief that, once aligned and the trigger pull initiated, there is nothing you can do consciously to improve the shot (except put the gun down and start over).
LOVE THE MOVEMENT OF THE FRONT SIGHT AN ALLOW THE GUN TO FIRE!!!
Remember "Cogito erg sum."- "I think, therefore I am."
In shooting, "Cogito ergo requiro." - I think, therefore I miss!!
Let the discussion begin!
Tillman in Florida (69 this month)
Rover wrote:There is a post a couple down from yours that mentions this site:
http://www.hlberg.dk/eurosimulator/shooting_usa.html
I think this is a great trainer for new shooters (and others) to establish a mental picture of what should be going on.
I would have a look at the "Basic Revolver" section. It will give you a pretty good idea what your six o'clock sight picture should look like. You also have the option of adjusting the "sights".
Good luck!
Good information tleddy. However, I disagree with your statement that your group will only be as good as your hold. This is absolutely not the case. When your subconscious is in synch with your trigger control, the shots break at the correct sight picture...the one that jack posted. If my groups were only a good as my hold, my scores would have been much lower over the years. You are correct that there is nothing that your conscious mind can do to make things better. The conscious mind is way too slow. Thousands upon thousands of pracitice rounds, proper practice that is, trains the subconscious. Your best performances will be when your mind is on auto pilot, so you are machine, not a thinking conscious person.
A little reference discussion for BEA
I am posting an excerpt from an article that Dave Salyer wrote sometime back that quotes the scientific physiology involved in "seeing" that I sent him. See below and here is the URL:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/salyer3.htm
Now, based on my complete agreement with you on the aspect of the subconscious and what I know the physiology, I wonder about the seeming contrast with my article. The subconscious operates at hundreds, if not thousands of times faster the the conscious mind.
That said, here is the problem: neither the conscious nor the subconscious can process information that has not been presented. For the subconscious to be able to work, it seems to me it must train itself to predict the future, that is, it must know where the gun is going to go, even though the information about where we perceive it is, is actually history. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Our consciousness of the surroundings does not live in the present, rather in
the near-historical past. For instance: The "seeing process" is described briefly.
Light strikes the rods and cones in the back of the eye and a chemical reaction
occurs. The nerve impulses from that chemical reaction are transmitted to the
optical nerve, also by a series of chemical reactions in the nerve cells. The
impulses then arrive in the cortex that allows interpretation in our "mind"
(whatever that is). One notes that these biochemical reactions take a finite and
actually rather long time.
Demonstrable audio reaction time is two to three tenths of a second and (is)
faster than visual reaction time.
In bullseye as well as other shooting disciplines, this concept is extremely important.
Quite simply, one living in the past can not have an effect on the present.
The present is represented by the "real" (time) sight picture. what we "see"
is historical.
Since the above is true, once the sight alignment and aiming area have been
achieved and positive trigger pressure begins, ego and judgment must cease!
One ceases to be a "doer" and becomes an "observer". The only decision the
conscious mind can make is to stop the shot from firing. Mr. Eddy notes that
we all have decided to stop a shot and the darn thing goes anyhow…
We were trying to change history!
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/salyer3.htm
Now, based on my complete agreement with you on the aspect of the subconscious and what I know the physiology, I wonder about the seeming contrast with my article. The subconscious operates at hundreds, if not thousands of times faster the the conscious mind.
That said, here is the problem: neither the conscious nor the subconscious can process information that has not been presented. For the subconscious to be able to work, it seems to me it must train itself to predict the future, that is, it must know where the gun is going to go, even though the information about where we perceive it is, is actually history. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Our consciousness of the surroundings does not live in the present, rather in
the near-historical past. For instance: The "seeing process" is described briefly.
Light strikes the rods and cones in the back of the eye and a chemical reaction
occurs. The nerve impulses from that chemical reaction are transmitted to the
optical nerve, also by a series of chemical reactions in the nerve cells. The
impulses then arrive in the cortex that allows interpretation in our "mind"
(whatever that is). One notes that these biochemical reactions take a finite and
actually rather long time.
Demonstrable audio reaction time is two to three tenths of a second and (is)
faster than visual reaction time.
In bullseye as well as other shooting disciplines, this concept is extremely important.
Quite simply, one living in the past can not have an effect on the present.
The present is represented by the "real" (time) sight picture. what we "see"
is historical.
Since the above is true, once the sight alignment and aiming area have been
achieved and positive trigger pressure begins, ego and judgment must cease!
One ceases to be a "doer" and becomes an "observer". The only decision the
conscious mind can make is to stop the shot from firing. Mr. Eddy notes that
we all have decided to stop a shot and the darn thing goes anyhow…
We were trying to change history!
BEA wrote:Good information tleddy. However, I disagree with your statement that your group will only be as good as your hold. This is absolutely not the case. When your subconscious is in synch with your trigger control, the shots break at the correct sight picture...the one that jack posted. If my groups were only a good as my hold, my scores would have been much lower over the years. You are correct that there is nothing that your conscious mind can do to make things better. The conscious mind is way too slow. Thousands upon thousands of pracitice rounds, proper practice that is, trains the subconscious. Your best performances will be when your mind is on auto pilot, so you are machine, not a thinking conscious person.
sight picture
All that is very scientifically impressive. However, as an example, my high score with a free pistol is a 99. The lone 9 was approx 1/2 way out the 9 ring. My hold area was bigger than this. The only way that I can expain this is that all systems were functioning and the shots broke at the right time. Another time, I ran 14 tens in a row. This string started on the 3nd shot of 1 string and went through the 7th shot of the next string. This was at a match back in the day when the paper targets were on a roll and we controlled them with a button. I can assure you that I was not holding 10 ring for all those shots, but they were still 10's because my subconscious was in control and they broke at the right time. If you get a chance sometime, watch some of the World Cup finals being fired. There is a link here at Scott's website. Depending on the camera angle, sometimes you can see the barrel movement, but many of the shots are still good ones...once again, because the break at the right time. If I prescribe to the scientific argument, I would be forced to believe that my good shots are only the result of luck...the shot just happen to break as I was passing through the 10 ring. I would be very surprised if you could find any top shooters that would agree with this. At any rate, all this makes for good discussion.
-
christopher
Related to what BEA is saying.
The way I get my subconscious mind to work for me is I try and focus as much as I can on just the front sight. The more I do this the more 10's I will shoot. For me I need to give my conscious mind a focal point and it should not be the relationship between the front site and the target.
The way I get my subconscious mind to work for me is I try and focus as much as I can on just the front sight. The more I do this the more 10's I will shoot. For me I need to give my conscious mind a focal point and it should not be the relationship between the front site and the target.
Re: sight picture
BEA-
I would not make any attribution to luck in your performance at all... rather, I now think that based on your observations, the subconscious KNOWS where and when the aim will be and does the shot release for you. The massive amount of training that you have done has taught the subconscious how to do that.
I also think, that for the less dedicated shooter that has not yet achieved that level of automatic performance, that by allowing the gun to move and not being in fear of the movement, will ultimately result in ever improving scores. As I said earlier, "I think, therefore I miss." Reproducing good shots should, over time and training, produce the results you describe... shooting from the subconscious.
Tillman
I would not make any attribution to luck in your performance at all... rather, I now think that based on your observations, the subconscious KNOWS where and when the aim will be and does the shot release for you. The massive amount of training that you have done has taught the subconscious how to do that.
I also think, that for the less dedicated shooter that has not yet achieved that level of automatic performance, that by allowing the gun to move and not being in fear of the movement, will ultimately result in ever improving scores. As I said earlier, "I think, therefore I miss." Reproducing good shots should, over time and training, produce the results you describe... shooting from the subconscious.
Tillman
BEA wrote:All that is very scientifically impressive. However, as an example, my high score with a free pistol is a 99. The lone 9 was approx 1/2 way out the 9 ring. My hold area was bigger than this. The only way that I can expain this is that all systems were functioning and the shots broke at the right time. Another time, I ran 14 tens in a row. This string started on the 3nd shot of 1 string and went through the 7th shot of the next string. This was at a match back in the day when the paper targets were on a roll and we controlled them with a button. I can assure you that I was not holding 10 ring for all those shots, but they were still 10's because my subconscious was in control and they broke at the right time. If you get a chance sometime, watch some of the World Cup finals being fired. There is a link here at Scott's website. Depending on the camera angle, sometimes you can see the barrel movement, but many of the shots are still good ones...once again, because the break at the right time. If I prescribe to the scientific argument, I would be forced to believe that my good shots are only the result of luck...the shot just happen to break as I was passing through the 10 ring. I would be very surprised if you could find any top shooters that would agree with this. At any rate, all this makes for good discussion.
sight alignment
When shooting, as skills improve, the sight movement becomes a gentle sway, not a vibration. The sway enters into the desired sight picture, the one that jack shared with us, (for me anyway) and the subconscious is quick enough to recognize this and take advantage of this very brief moment. I don't think that it is a matter of having only a milisecond to take advantage of it, but the steadier you are, the more time you have. With thousands of rounds of hammering this image into your mind, you automatically look for it, and when you see it and the shot breaks cleanly, you feel/know where to look for the hole as soon as you scope. Sometimes you don't scope, because you know where it is. The following shot, you simply focus on seeing/feeling the same thing again. Calling a shot, and especially a good shot, is very gratifying. We all know that. Proper training is not simply putting rounds down range, as you well know. You have to know what you are looking for in your sights, zero your pistol so when you produce that sight picture, you hit the center. You can't hold the pistol out there and hope for the best. A good shot is manufactured, it doesn't just happen. If any of the steps are left out, something less than we want might be produced. You are dead on about thinking and missing. The same goes for thinking or being afraid you will miss. Shooting is 95% mental, and confidense in your system of producing a good shot is paramount. Shooting free pistol is extremely difficult (did I really need to say that?!). It is like trying to shoot down a 2 inch tube for 50 meters and not hitting the sides. I sometimes think I must have some masochistic tendancies to enjoy it. Thanks again for your discussion. I have enjoyed it.