Copper plated

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:45 pm

Are copper "washed" ( not jacketed) bullets ISSF legal for CF pistol ?
I am referring to H&N plated and plastic coated bullets.
I have heard unconfirmed reports that some overzealous officials have somtimes raised an issue before the odd match.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:19 am

I didn't realise that Officials checked the ammo that will be used at competitions. That's a new one on me.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:20 am

I didn't realise that Officials checked the ammo that will be used at competitions. That's a new one on me.

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:44 am

As I said...uncomfirmed.
However I definitly remember this issue being brought up on this forum sometime ago, but I cannot locate it, so it has raised some concern.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:26 am

EC and range officials usually have better things to do with their time than examine shooters' projectiles, but...

'8.4.4 Ammunition - All projectiles used must be made of lead or similar soft material only (my emphasis). Jacketed projectiles are not permitted. The Jury may take samples from the shooter‟s ammunition for checking' is pretty clear.
A shooter who steps outside 8.4.4 does so at their own risk. While some ISSF Judges will accept a metal 'wash', many will not.
Any shooter who takes the gamble on the Jury composition is asking for trouble.

...it is often other competitors who bring this to the attention of the competition officials

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:49 am

Its ambiguous really.

A copper wash is not a jacket.

Plated copper is a 'similar soft material' and in such a trivial quantity it wouldn't be noticeable on a comparative hardness test.

But I very much doubt any official would see it that way.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:42 am

JamesH wrote:Its ambiguous really...

Not really: copper is not a similar soft material

JamesH wrote:...A copper wash is not a jacket...

For pistol for Australian competitions we accept any wash that can easily be scraped off (without going into the details of 'easily').

JamesH wrote:...Plated copper is a 'similar soft material' and in such a trivial quantity it wouldn't be noticeable on a comparative hardness test...

Plating is an entirely different matter: I have had samples of plated projectiles submitted for approval with plating thicker than on some jacketed projectiles - go figure.

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:49 pm

Copper is a pretty soft material, especially in the pure or unhardened state.

A 'wash' is a form of plating, electroless plating.

Obviously we aren't talking about electroplating to jacket thickness, that would be a jacket.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:11 am

Spencer wrote:
'8.4.4 Ammunition - All projectiles used must be made of lead or similar soft material only (my emphasis). Jacketed projectiles are not permitted.

So anyone with wax lube on their projectiles will also be flouting the rules?

Wax is in no way "similar" to lead, it's not a metal to start with and it's way softer!

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:09 am

Spencer wrote:Any shooter who takes the gamble on the Jury composition is asking for trouble.

I think all serious shooters would do well to remember these very wise words.

It doesn't matter whether you or the jury are eventually proved right, that will be after your match has been ruined.

Sensible shooters make sure that their equipment, clothing and technique are well within the rules; stay well away from any ambiguity.

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:29 am

David's advice to stay clear of ambiguity is wise.
However, my guts are not at peace.
For a start it may well be that copper "washed" projectiles do not fall foul of the primary intent behind the jacket ban; This being danger from richocets.
The second is that some of the better made washed bullets offer various benefits without the danger ( percieved or otherwise) of jacketed ammo.

Oftentimes, even at Law, judges do not simply read into the word of a particular legislation, but guided by the spirit and INTENT , do jusitice.

In the case for the washed masses of bullets, even the "word" does not rule out simple copper plating.
I have used H&N plated and plastic coated bullets and can vouch that the surface is indeed copperlike at least as softness is concerned.
Many hardcast lead bullets offer far greater richocet potential than a plated soft lead one.
And there is more: The better plastic coated ones do not dissipate harmfull lead sub-particles and keep your barrel lead free, minimising subsequent hazardous cleaning waste handling and disposal.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:22 am

Mail from the ISSF on H&N copper plated bullets

05.10.2007

Dear Shooting Friend!

The ISSF Headquarters forwarded your E-Mail to me, as a Member of the ISSF Technical Committee to answer your request.

Electroplated coating of lead projectiles are not against the ISSF Rules. The thickness of this coating is about 3-4 µ. This causes not any harm regarding the safety.

Best wishes and regards

schatzperson · Post by **schatzperson** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:58 am

Interesting.
It would be great if we could have a copy of the ISSF letter concerning the conformity of H&N copper plated bullets, with our kit when we shoot matches.
I will be flying into Italy over the weekend for a friendly match and at least 2 of our team members will be using such projectiles.
Better armed we cant be !