What Muscles for steering in standing

[muldoon9]

During standing I am balanced , and relaxed .
My NPA is "on".

What muscles do you'all use to steer the gun around
the TEN ring ?

Primarily the waist muscles for left- right ? any arm input ?

I try to never ever give vertical input, because that
is a gaurantee for a dropped shot, or tossing one out the top....
....due to a botched follow through.

So, what do you say ?

Michael

Southwestern Virginia

[2650 Plus]

Just as close to no muscles tension as I can manage without falling down. I rely on NPA and relaxation to minimize movement and coordinate the trigger finger with that moment when there is no straight line movement in my hold.If I am holding ten ring I get the reward of a hole in the ten ring. If my hold is a bit larger I still may get a ten but sometimes its a nine. Oh well !!! Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Pat McCoy]

I agree with Bill. As little tension as possible. Why do you want to "steer around" in the ten ring? If it is a ten, take the shot.

[muldoon9]

well,
I say "steer around" because there seems to be that little
bit of "slack".

If I give a little input it stays 10 at 3 o'clock. Look down and back
up, and its still there, maybe with a bit of twitch.

Give a little steer 'tward
10 at 9 o'clock to center things up. But it will never seem to drift back
'tward 3 o'cklock.


Seems like coat bunching or elbow placement are the key variables.

Again.
What Muscles Are You Useing ?

You must be giving SOME input to center up ??

Regards,

Michael

[BartP]

If your NPA is done correctly, "steering" is not necessary - it's actually counter-productive to continually refining the NPA you DO have.

Most people are happy to be have the 'problem' of 'steering round the ten ring'! UNLESS...you are simply having trouble HITTING THE TEN because your rifle seems to love the 9 ring (which is highly irritating.) But me thinks that you REALLY mean, "How do I get the movement to slow or steady WHEN I am shooting so I can shoot 10s?" The answer is NOT in using muscle. You answer is in continually refining your NPA, analyzing your adjustments, and developing small incremental solutions to gradually increase your percentage of 10s BASED ON PERFECT BALANCE (achieved over and over and over again.)

IF your NPA is sound...try experimenting with hand grip tension. It can help a great number of people to actively engage the pistol grip.

The Rest. Your own ability to PRACTICE executing well-chosen shots and not accepting (and not shooting at) mediocre sight pictures will determine your progress. When you get to the highest levels of competition, you soon realize that EVERY SHOT is THE MATCH. SO every shot needs to treated as the best shot you will ever shoot. Finding the ten ring is more about determination and discipline and the maturity to shoot JUST shots that are worthy of your goals.

The mental program needed to achieve consistent high offhand scores is a necessary component to your success. If you look at the shots taken by Quinan Zhu, you can see that near-perfect 10s can be achieved on literally every shot. So your goals and the process you use to get there must emulate the perfection needed to be PERFECTLY steady. Visualization, self-talk, and the right diagnostic tools will serve you well (noptel, scatt).

Hope that helps some. BartP

[jholtman]

The muscles needed to control your hold and stance should not be something you can think about, any more than you think about the process you use to walk across the room. You should be focused on the shot process not on steering the rifle around the 10 ring. If your NPA is truely "on", there should not be a need to steer the rifle. I doubt that most shooter can identify the muscles used as it needs to be completely done by the subconscious mind. The more of the process you can let go of to the subconscious the better off you will be. Set you balance, set your NPA perfectly, and just let it happen.
Jim

[muldoon9]

It would seem you are all pointing to an NPA flaw.

I will try grip.
I will try refinements.

I had assumed after a few years I was too passive in my stance and wanting more 10s NOW I tried to get aggressive.
I shoot 95%. The climb to 97% feels like a
vertical wall. Maybe you guys just gave me a boost.

If the NPA can be refined THAT well, I will do it.
I thought I was chaseing a ghost.

So .....NPA verified on each shot ? Seems time consuming but I will
do what it takes.

Regards
Michael

[Bowman26]

It would seem you are all pointing to an NPA flaw.

I will try grip.
I will try refinements.

I had assumed after a few years I was too passive in my stance and wanting more 10s NOW I tried to get aggressive.
I shoot 95%. The climb to 97% feels like a
vertical wall. Maybe you guys just gave me a boost.

If the NPA can be refined THAT well, I will do it.
I thought I was chaseing a ghost.

So .....NPA verified on each shot ? Seems time consuming but I will
do what it takes.

Regards
Michael

I shoot silhouette not 10m but I shoot air as well as powder burners and I always verify my NPA before every shot. Now my targets are moving along the line of the target stand and not one centerline, but I would think you are going to want to check that as part of each shots process.

I can tell you as I use high magnification scopes offhand that even a simple lifting of your foot inside your shoe or flexing your toes can move you NPA ever so slightly. In fact I will often refine my NPA on each shot if slightly off by merely pushing up on my big toe inside my shoe and and shifting my foot. The shoe never leaves the ground. You have plenty of time to verify in 10m matches. I have 30 seconds per shot and do it everytime. 10m gives you what 90 seconds per shot average span?


Bo

[muldoon9]

I do perform the inside the shoe toe dance.
Seems to have most of the effect on my balance,
unless the shift is causing my balance to change and I am over focoused on that.

The littlest things.

Yet even the most subtle things effecting the NPA are not discussed much.

Here I am possibly with a broken NPA trying to steer my way out of it ?

Yikes

Michael

[BartP]

I wrote a brief but effective reply to a thread regarding offhand. Plug "forward/backward swaying" into the search engine on this site. I think you will find it helpful. Bart

[EJ]

The muscles needed to control your hold and stance should not be something you can think about, any more than you think about the process you use to walk across the room. You should be focused on the shot process not on steering the rifle around the 10 ring. If your NPA is truely "on", there should not be a need to steer the rifle. I doubt that most shooter can identify the muscles used as it needs to be completely done by the subconscious mind. The more of the process you can let go of to the subconscious the better off you will be. Set you balance, set your NPA perfectly, and just let it happen.
Jim

This is almost exactly how I would describe it except for the last part, letting it happen. A shot always requires work, just not on steering.

/EJ

[Pat McCoy]

EJ,

"Working" on the shot is what hampers most shooters. At the beginning there is much to learn, and much to think about, but as more and more becomes "automatic" your results will improve.

Letting it happen, as opposed to making it happen, allows the un(sub) conscious to take over the process. Changing from a "directed" shot to an un(sub)conscious shot cuts the reaction time (and thus barrel movement) about in half.

[RobStubbs]

Agree with lots of the above. You want as little muscle involvement as possible. Muscles constantly twitch and they tire so relying on them is not a good idea. With regards the shot's they should just happen really. Let the gun move around the NPA (which should be to the middle of the bull), and the shot should break when it's in the middle <ideally>.

Rob.

[EJ]

EJ,

"Working" on the shot is what hampers most shooters. At the beginning there is much to learn, and much to think about, but as more and more becomes "automatic" your results will improve.

Letting it happen, as opposed to making it happen, allows the un(sub) conscious to take over the process. Changing from a "directed" shot to an un(sub)conscious shot cuts the reaction time (and thus barrel movement) about in half.

Absolutely, but to get there, to let it happen, requires a lot of planning and execution in both the physical and mental stage. That is, to let something happen you need to start the process up (make it happen) before it runs by itself and the end (a smooth trigger release and a deep ten) happens without conscious effort.

Changing from a "directed" shot to an un(sub)conscious shot cuts the reaction time (and thus barrel movement) about in half.

Can you give me the reference? I would like to read more about it.

/EJ

[Pat McCoy]

EJ,

Right, the pre-shot routine needs to be run, and includes mount,
NPA, etc, right up to the point of operating the trigger. Lots of discussion about this (especially on the pistol forum).

The 'let it happen" as opposed to "make it happen" is usually in reference to trigger control.

In coaching rifle shooters results seem to be better with "letting it happen" or "automatic trigger let off" rather than focus on trigger operation, while focusing on the perfect sight picture.

This is used by some pistol shooters, but I've had a couple shooters switch from rifle to pistol and they found focus on the trigger, with attendant "automatic or subconscious sight alignment" to work better with the pistol.

Having recently moved, all my books and notes are in storage, but about 10-12 years ago at the NRA/USAShooting Coach college a presentation was made by two PhD researchers (from U of MD I think). They used electrical responses to the brain to show the difference in reaction time depending on consciously seeing the perfect sight picture, then firing, and allowing the subconscious to fire the shot on it's own recognition of parameters needed to score a ten. I'm just beginning to get books, etc out ois storage, and will give additional details when I find my notes.

[muldoon9]

It almost is sounding as if I am to program my subconcious to fire when conditions are right.

Is this a big deal ?

Lanny Basham talks abot inputs to the sub, but he doesn't get much farther past the self image- confidence portion of the game if I remember
correctly.........if not I am showing how much of the book I did miss.

If I had to start, I would take up where his "affermative statements" left off.

Regards

Michael

[Pat McCoy]

The U of MD study had more to do with left brain versus right brain activity in shooting. Using the right brain, via a "picture" of what you want to achieve, gave quicker response thus less area covered by barrel movement.

I believe the idea being pursued in Basham's book was more to use the subconscious to raise your self image to "championship levels" by use of affirmations.

[jholtman]

Michael,
How many times have you picked up the rifle, held on the target, and the rifle went off with what you thought was a premature discharge? when you looked in the spotting scope, did you find a very deep 10? This "automagical" shot came from your subconscious mind observed the correct image and did not wait for you to think "now". Most shooters panic when the shot releases like this and then they are relieved to see a 10 as is it was just luck. They should embrace this occurance and hope that it happens more often than not. This is sometimes referred to as being in the zone and some have described it as if you were outside your body watching yourself shoot. If you have never experienced the zone you may not understand, but if you have it is as if you can do no wrong and the tens just flow one after another.
Jim

[EJ]

Having recently moved, all my books and notes are in storage, but about 10-12 years ago at the NRA/USAShooting Coach college a presentation was made by two PhD researchers (from U of MD I think). They used electrical responses to the brain to show the difference in reaction time depending on consciously seeing the perfect sight picture, then firing, and allowing the subconscious to fire the shot on it's own recognition of parameters needed to score a ten. I'm just beginning to get books, etc out ois storage, and will give additional details when I find my notes.

I have a couple of studies from that university

Haufler, Amy J., Spalding, Thomas W., Santa Maria D.L., Hatfield, Bradley D., Neuro-cognitive activity during a self-paced visuospatial task: comparative EEG profiles in marksmen and novice shooters. Biological Psychology. 53:131-160 (2000)
and
Hillman, Charles H., Apparies, Ross J., Janelle, Christoffer M., Hatfield, Bradley D. An electrocortical comparison of executed and rejected shots in skilled marksmen. Biological Psychology. 52:71-83 (2000)

I might have more if I do a better search but could these be it? I have unfortunately not read them yet due to a full schedule but I will.
/EJ

edit:
Kerick, Scott E., McDowell, Kaleb, Hung, Tsung-Min, Santa Maria, D.L., Spalding, Thomas W., Hatfield, Bradley D. The role of the left temporal region under the cognitive motor demands of shooting in skilled marksmen. Biological Psychology. 58:263-277 (2001)

[muldoon9]

Hello J Holtman,

That phenomena doesn't happen enough, in my estimation.
Tho things go well if I silence my inner dialogue when I focous on the front
sight.......thats the current cue in my process.......things go well with that
sequence.

I wish I knew how to turn on the automatic shots, or zone. Perhaps I need to turn other things off. Or turn them off sooner ? My silent time has a short span, relatively speaking.

That "effort" seems to tire on some days.

Michael