Hi all,
On Creedmoor's website, there is an AHG-Anschutz shooting coat listed for $159.95. It looks interesting enough in that small picture on the website-not like any of the other coats that AHG makes.
I'm just wondering if anyone knows a bit more about it. The price is inviting and I just so happen to be in the market for a new coat. Has anyone purchased one? Do they like it? Do they not?
Any information helps
Creedmoor AHG ISU Coat
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Guest
Its not an ahg coat. Its something they and Creedmoor have made together. Reading between the lines, I'd imagine its made in the far east by Creedmoor, who have got Anschutz to lend their name to it.
Doesn't mean there will be anything wrong with it; a lot of ahg coats are made in eastern European countries; Pakistan, Hungary etc
Doesn't mean there will be anything wrong with it; a lot of ahg coats are made in eastern European countries; Pakistan, Hungary etc
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Guest
I have talked to the distributors and they told me that all of the AHGs, Gehmann, Sig Sauer and Freeland are made in Pakistan or Malaysian sweat shops. The only brand that I know that aren't are Kurt Thunes and Monard.Anonymous wrote:Its not an ahg coat. Its something they and Creedmoor have made together. Reading between the lines, I'd imagine its made in the far east by Creedmoor, who have got Anschutz to lend their name to it.
Doesn't mean there will be anything wrong with it; a lot of ahg coats are made in eastern European countries; Pakistan, Hungary etc
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Mesars
Creedmore ISU coat
I have the Creedmore leather ISU coat and think it was worth the cost. Whats to say, it works fine. its a coat
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Guest
Not exactly true. The cheaper coats by Anschutz, Gehmann and Sauer (not Sig Sauer!) would be made outside the western European countries, although not sweat shops!Anonymous wrote: I have talked to the distributors and they told me that all of the AHGs, Gehmann, Sig Sauer and Freeland are made in Pakistan or Malaysian sweat shops. The only brand that I know that aren't are Kurt Thunes and Monard.
The higher end jackets from each company are still made in Germany.
I'd expect the same to be true of Monard and Thune; higher end stuff made in house, cheaper stuff made where stuff is made cheaper. Hungary, Pakistan, Turkey and the like.
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Quest1
Sweat Shops
...I'd expect the same to be true of Monard and Thune; higher end stuff made in house, cheaper stuff made where stuff is made cheaper. Hungary, Pakistan, Turkey and the like.[/quote]
Your guess would be half right. The lower end gear by Thune is made outside of Europe and mostly in the cheap far east plants. My conversations with the distributor for Monard cloths was that their cloths are all made in Europe.
I think we have a entirely different understanding of a sweat shop especially in poor areas of these countries. First of all there can be cultural difference where they are taught not question authority despite how tough your working conditions maybe. Secondly the management for these facilities are hiring the laborers who are poor and not very well educated and if anybody questions their working conditions they are easily replaced as there are numerous people standing who want the same job. When I mean poor I mean poor the poorest person in this country would be considered living like a king compared to their conditions. If they are injured or get sick they will probably be replaced by somebody else. The management and employees are under great pressure to produce at the lowest cost and that generally doesn't leave any room in their budget for the management to give such things as health insurance, sick leave or vacations. There is great competition to get these contracts and that means bidding to the lowest cost that leaves no room for management these extras if they want the contract. Know to be honest the distributors didn't exactly say they where sweat shops. However, if you understand the cultures and business environments it's not hard to extrapolate what kind of working conditions will result.
You don't have to go very far to see what happens when you have to deal with these money issues even for what many classify as enlightened countries. I worked for a government contractor who was brought in specifically to cut people because they found out that over the years the contractors and government haven't been funding the employees retirement programs, so they had two choices back fill the retirement fund which would have meant pulling hundreds of millions of dollars out of their own pocket or get rid of people. Now if you where in these top management positions what would you do? The management used the opportunity to not only get rid of older people, but to get rid many of the people who were on short or long term disability. They were very smart in the way they did it in that they mixed in enough younger and healthy people to withstand legal scrutiny. Plus, even if you did want to sue who can afford to take on the government who can just turn on the printing press to keep funding their legal costs.
The conditions these people in the far east are generally working in are very close to the conditions that American and European workers faced at the start of it's industrial age. There where a few business in America and Europe that did have good working conditions, but they weren't necessarily the rule. Why do you think Unions flourished during the first half of the 20th Century. One of my business professors used to tell us that business that have unions usually deserve them.
Some companies have policies where they are suppose to inspect these overseas plants, but as various news investigations have indicated the plant management in these countries are alerted when these inspections occur and the employees are coached on how they should respond to these inspectors. People are going to be afraid to speak up and who would blame them. It's akin to telling people in a neighborhood that is under siege by gang violence and that the people will be protected by the police, but everyone knows that the police can't be everywhere and the people aren't allowed to protect themselves and as soon as the police leave the gangs will retaliate against anyone who spoke ill of the gang.
I think the question to be asked would you define these as tolerable working conditions you would work in? The people will tolerate these conditions for now because jobs are scarce. The other side of this question would be that if the countries continue to progress economically and the people become more educated and affluent these conditions should change just as they have done in most of the modern industrial countries.
Many people in both the US and Europe are under the illusion that that poor working conditions only exist in these poor countries. The US and Europe still have sweat shops operating in their countries. They can generally employ illegals who would be afraid to bring attention to the work environment for fear of losing their job and being deported. You have poultry plants where even legal women workers aren't allowed bathroom breaks off the assembly line, but they are afraid to speak up because they don't want to lose a job that is very scarce. Would you define that as a sweat shop working condition where you have to mess in your own pants to keep your job?
Your guess would be half right. The lower end gear by Thune is made outside of Europe and mostly in the cheap far east plants. My conversations with the distributor for Monard cloths was that their cloths are all made in Europe.
I think we have a entirely different understanding of a sweat shop especially in poor areas of these countries. First of all there can be cultural difference where they are taught not question authority despite how tough your working conditions maybe. Secondly the management for these facilities are hiring the laborers who are poor and not very well educated and if anybody questions their working conditions they are easily replaced as there are numerous people standing who want the same job. When I mean poor I mean poor the poorest person in this country would be considered living like a king compared to their conditions. If they are injured or get sick they will probably be replaced by somebody else. The management and employees are under great pressure to produce at the lowest cost and that generally doesn't leave any room in their budget for the management to give such things as health insurance, sick leave or vacations. There is great competition to get these contracts and that means bidding to the lowest cost that leaves no room for management these extras if they want the contract. Know to be honest the distributors didn't exactly say they where sweat shops. However, if you understand the cultures and business environments it's not hard to extrapolate what kind of working conditions will result.
You don't have to go very far to see what happens when you have to deal with these money issues even for what many classify as enlightened countries. I worked for a government contractor who was brought in specifically to cut people because they found out that over the years the contractors and government haven't been funding the employees retirement programs, so they had two choices back fill the retirement fund which would have meant pulling hundreds of millions of dollars out of their own pocket or get rid of people. Now if you where in these top management positions what would you do? The management used the opportunity to not only get rid of older people, but to get rid many of the people who were on short or long term disability. They were very smart in the way they did it in that they mixed in enough younger and healthy people to withstand legal scrutiny. Plus, even if you did want to sue who can afford to take on the government who can just turn on the printing press to keep funding their legal costs.
The conditions these people in the far east are generally working in are very close to the conditions that American and European workers faced at the start of it's industrial age. There where a few business in America and Europe that did have good working conditions, but they weren't necessarily the rule. Why do you think Unions flourished during the first half of the 20th Century. One of my business professors used to tell us that business that have unions usually deserve them.
Some companies have policies where they are suppose to inspect these overseas plants, but as various news investigations have indicated the plant management in these countries are alerted when these inspections occur and the employees are coached on how they should respond to these inspectors. People are going to be afraid to speak up and who would blame them. It's akin to telling people in a neighborhood that is under siege by gang violence and that the people will be protected by the police, but everyone knows that the police can't be everywhere and the people aren't allowed to protect themselves and as soon as the police leave the gangs will retaliate against anyone who spoke ill of the gang.
I think the question to be asked would you define these as tolerable working conditions you would work in? The people will tolerate these conditions for now because jobs are scarce. The other side of this question would be that if the countries continue to progress economically and the people become more educated and affluent these conditions should change just as they have done in most of the modern industrial countries.
Many people in both the US and Europe are under the illusion that that poor working conditions only exist in these poor countries. The US and Europe still have sweat shops operating in their countries. They can generally employ illegals who would be afraid to bring attention to the work environment for fear of losing their job and being deported. You have poultry plants where even legal women workers aren't allowed bathroom breaks off the assembly line, but they are afraid to speak up because they don't want to lose a job that is very scarce. Would you define that as a sweat shop working condition where you have to mess in your own pants to keep your job?
I think for me, the original question was a bit more basic. See, I'm a 6'3" left-handed shooter. I wear a US Size 13 shoe, EU size ~47. I'm pushing the higher limits of what's available off the rack as a shooter. I shoot a left-handed rifle. A great deal of my components I've had to either make myself or order specially.
It's hard enough for me to find shooting clothing that fits. It's not that I'm morbidly obese or anything, I'm just a big guy. Being left-handed complicates things even more.
I've gotten used to accepting that I'm going to have to pay more for my shooting supplies. Lately, I've accepted that everything generally has to come from Europe. The part that's most frustrating for me is that, even though I know it's going to take a week or two for the items to get to me, that's actually quicker than waiting for some American suppliers to call me back. No, I'm not exaggerating.
The thing for me is that, I'm coming back to the Smallbore Rifle world from having shot pistol for the bulk of my early and mid-20s. I shot a lot of defensive pistol. When you enter the world of defensive shooting, you learn early on that trash equipment can get you hurt.
Now, with all that said, we come to this apparent dilemma of how and where some of our shooting products are made. Now, there are some truths with which we need to come to terms. Smallbore and Precision Air Rifle shooting is, at its best, a niche sport. The truth is, we have to deal with the fact we live in a global world. Fifty or so years ago, the vast majority of us would be shooting with Remingtons and Winchesters, all of our accessories would come from Freeland's, the sights would be Redfield or Lyman, and irises and glass inserts would be as foreign to us as putting a man on the Moon.
In response to some of the comments I've read, I'm going to say that they're right. Fact is, a vast majority of the consumer goods made today are made south of the 30th Parallel and east of the Gulf of Arabia. Conditions, on average, range from substandard to abhorrent, as compared to the standard of living of those living in the First World. Cotton, the base of canvas, does not grow naturally in quantity or quality in any part of Europe. Most European environmental laws prevent the wide-scale tanning and dying of leathers. If anyone has set foot in a notions store lately, they know that heavy sewing machines and needles come from Asia.
Personally, with all of the preceeding, I don't have as much a problem with where the materials come from as I do with the fact that, as rifle shooters, it appears that we're paying First World prices for shooting coats and pants with Third World components.
It's hard enough for me to find shooting clothing that fits. It's not that I'm morbidly obese or anything, I'm just a big guy. Being left-handed complicates things even more.
I've gotten used to accepting that I'm going to have to pay more for my shooting supplies. Lately, I've accepted that everything generally has to come from Europe. The part that's most frustrating for me is that, even though I know it's going to take a week or two for the items to get to me, that's actually quicker than waiting for some American suppliers to call me back. No, I'm not exaggerating.
The thing for me is that, I'm coming back to the Smallbore Rifle world from having shot pistol for the bulk of my early and mid-20s. I shot a lot of defensive pistol. When you enter the world of defensive shooting, you learn early on that trash equipment can get you hurt.
Now, with all that said, we come to this apparent dilemma of how and where some of our shooting products are made. Now, there are some truths with which we need to come to terms. Smallbore and Precision Air Rifle shooting is, at its best, a niche sport. The truth is, we have to deal with the fact we live in a global world. Fifty or so years ago, the vast majority of us would be shooting with Remingtons and Winchesters, all of our accessories would come from Freeland's, the sights would be Redfield or Lyman, and irises and glass inserts would be as foreign to us as putting a man on the Moon.
In response to some of the comments I've read, I'm going to say that they're right. Fact is, a vast majority of the consumer goods made today are made south of the 30th Parallel and east of the Gulf of Arabia. Conditions, on average, range from substandard to abhorrent, as compared to the standard of living of those living in the First World. Cotton, the base of canvas, does not grow naturally in quantity or quality in any part of Europe. Most European environmental laws prevent the wide-scale tanning and dying of leathers. If anyone has set foot in a notions store lately, they know that heavy sewing machines and needles come from Asia.
Personally, with all of the preceeding, I don't have as much a problem with where the materials come from as I do with the fact that, as rifle shooters, it appears that we're paying First World prices for shooting coats and pants with Third World components.