.32 ACP

[Guest]

In that particular case many people ended up having to sell their expensive match 9x19mm guns--as in shooters lost money and their right to those guns. That wouldn't have happened if there was a different organization with a different set of rules. The point being ISSF rules affect shooters in a very direct way in some countries. Thus, there should be an alternative. Also, a rule leading to a possible discussion is no good rule--just my humble opinion.

[David Levene]

That wouldn't have happened if there was a different organization with a different set of rules. The point being ISSF rules affect shooters in a very direct way in some countries. Thus, there should be an alternative.

I always thought that there was one, the IPSC.

If neither they nor the ISSF have rules that suit you then you could always think along the same lines as in JamesH's thread.

[Guest]

IPSC is banned in some countries because it's too "dynamic"--sometimes local authorities consider it "guerrila training". Same for IDPA, etc. Introducing something new like Bullseye may be the way to go, but then you got to change some local laws--that part ain't no easy. Anyway, I just realize I'm straying quite far from the original subject which is about the 32ACP... my excuses to the original poster and to the forum administrator as well as the rest of the participants in this great forum--that won't happen again.

[Brian James]

I beleive Pardini was considering adapting the HP to shoot 7.62. I heard this likely 4-5 years ago and I checked with them a few times over the years and it didn't seem to make any progress they could share.

I think one item this thready has missed is ISSF CF is only one part of the CF market. I know some NRA shooters use 32s, but CISM has to be one conisdered a major market segment for 32 makers. Sourcing match ammo, ideally with a Nato part number is often critical for military shooters. So not having match grade 32 acp is an issue for military shooters who do no reload.

My 2 cents,

Brian

[j-team]

Which brings me back to my earlier point:-

".....anyone who doesn't make sure that they fully comply with the letter of the rules runs the risk, at best, of a "discussion" with the Jury. Do you really need that at a match?"

David, at the risk of creating an endless loop:-

It brings me back to my earlier point, that sometimes copperplated bullets are all we can get!

The ISSF don't seem to realise that people are voting with their feet. My club has had about 80 new members this year, our National Association has all time record member numbers. Almost all of them are going to IPSC.

By the way, I sold my Walther GSP and bought a $300 revolver to shoot CF with as I didn't want to get stuck with an unsellable pistol in a few years.

OK, I know this has strayed from the original topic if .32ACP being a viable ISSF CF cartridge, but I think debating the ISSF and their "rules by strangulation" attitude is relavent.

[schatzperson]

Why is the jacket issue more visible today?
Well the answer to this one might be in some posts; By some legalistic contortion, in some countries ISSF rulings are law or based thereof.

The more restrictions you have , the more will the ridiculous rulings have a noticeable effect.
The less guns, calibers, gun-types you can shoot, the more often you will meet with in-your-face anomalies; AND these will bug you even more.

Its sad to say that within the inner echelons of the ISSF there is, believe it or not, an antigun sentiment. I would not be surprised at all if the FMJ issue is due to general anti-warlike object convictions within these circles.
Its well known that these, rule with an impunity, irrespective of the interests and feelings of the sports shooting public worldwide; Odd yes, but certainly possible; One has only too look at the tremendous influence the ISSF has on Olympic rulings to see just how powerfull these guys are.

Anyway, back to fresh air.
This 32ACP thread has yielded some results.
Anyone has any more technical points to contribute?
It seems that there is scope for a specific CF sports pistol, of 32 ACP or a rimless round of similar energy levels.
If 32ACP were chosen, then a faster twist (1:10" ?) might do for a long line version.

I was going to ask for ideas about the general format next, but perhaps this should be subject to another thread.
It would be interesting to log, just what would typical CF shooters prefer:
1) Grip angle.
2) Magazine in grip or forward of triggerguard.
3) General balance/qualities.
4) Trigger attributes.

Maybe you guys with more experience on these forums forums can give me a hint ot two. Case for a poll?

[David Levene]

One has only too look at the tremendous influence the ISSF has on Olympic rulings to see just how powerfull these guys are.

On the contrary, it is the other way round.

The ISSF must do everything they can to keep shooting in the Olympics. If they need to change the rules to achieve it then that is what they will do.

If shooting was to be removed from the Olympics then civilian sports shooting in very many countries will come under serious threat from legislators.

[Spencer]

...It would be interesting to log, just what would typical CF shooters prefer:
1) Grip angle.
2) Magazine in grip or forward of triggerguard.
3) General balance/qualities.
4) Trigger attributes...

Not mentioned:
A - reliability (and I don't consider that .32ACP would give inherent better reliability than .32S&W. Most reliability problems are related to design/materials than cartridge used)
B - suitable for use by shooters with small hand/fingers

1) Grip angle - adjustable.
2) Magazine in grip or forward of triggerguard - given 1) and B, forward.
3) General balance/qualities - adjustable.
4) Trigger attributes - adjustable

[schatzperson]

Well David, I sincerely wish that the top guys in the ISSF have shooting at heart; And I mean in action and not just lip service.
Even if we disbelieve 100% the notion that political correctness and circus beaurocracy has NOT been slowly but steadily eating away at the Olympic spirit; The fact remains that Olympic shooting has degenerated.
Lets say I was wrong, re. who influencies whoever. The end result does not change and this des not look good. Chicken and egg situation with both entities not committed to our interests........at best. The reality is that an anti-real-gun, pinko-green sentiment exists in both.
I dont really want to discuss this in this thread, but yes of course national legislation in some countries uses this excuse, which makes it even more dangerous. I have been involved in gun lobbying, sporting organisation and legislative drafting for the past 15 years and since 2005 it has taken a European dimension; The one thing I have seen is, that you dont make gains by relying on any one sporting organisation ( especially the olympics and the ISSF). Both organisations mentioned have NOT stood up for us, but on the contrary created more division in the shooting community.
The more prestigeous the entity, the better it is used as a vehicle for nonsense legislation; This being the case, the more important it is to have indivuiduals driven by OUR interests...and this is clearly not the case.
In the past 10 years we have seen DROVES of new and not so new shooters simply moving to IPSC and the action sports. The ISSF have chosen to consider practical shooting a "renegade" sport and enough is known of public and behind the scenes, endless bikerring-
-Thus creating more division and this is just what antis want. I have yet to witness a bigger gaff than this one.
The results are evident. Precision shooting is moribund. Mortally wounded by legislation and incorrectly diagnosed by its own medical staff. The replacement of firearms with airguns will have the predictable effect.
In NRA conventional Pistol lies hope. Lets see if we can all make this worldwide . You guys dont kill off midrange , OK? :-)

There we go sinking into politics.
Back to sport and science guys!

[schatzperson]

Thank you for your input Spencer.
Your preference for a forward magazine, given an adjustable grip angle is noted. Could you please elaborate on your choice ?
By reliability I meant correct cycling consistently; A lot of people consider the 32 Long to be detrimental to this, mainly because its really a revolver round. My consideration of the 32ACP as replacment was because I have seen it function reliably in so called pocket guns; The semi-rim and diameter to length ration might play a part here.

[David Levene]

The one thing I have seen is, that you dont make gains by relying on any one sporting organisation ( especially the olympics and the ISSF).

OK so don't. Find or create another organisation but don't criticize an existing one just because it doesn't shoot or control the events/guns you like to shoot.

The fact is that the IOC will only recognise one International Controlling Body for each sport. At the moment it's the ISSF for shooting and I can't imagine that changing to one that is seen as being less "politically correct".

Of course the ISSF is not perfect, but they are our best chance currently of keeping shooting in the Olympics, and that is vital to the worldwide shooting sports.

[schatzperson]

Of course we did not. And in Malta ended up with perhaps the most reasonable gun laws within the EU. The model and method we used are now known out of all proportion to our size.
I could write heaps and miles of posts if I was to mention the insiduous opposition we got from the ISSF side during (and we still do) the development phases. Some of this was well meaning, but if we had tied in with their reasoning, we would have nothing but airguns and perhaps rimfires (temporarily).
Of course I will critisize. Will do so constructively, as long as my interests are involved. Yes I like precision.
Not only that, I will also do my best to propogate the idea that to change something you , have to work hard from within.
So no, I will not leave it to beaver.
I will urge everyone to claw, dig and worm their way in positions that count.
Within and without.

[Guest]

OK so don't. Find or create another organisation but don't criticize an existing one just because it doesn't shoot or control the events/guns you like to shoot.

Maybe poeple in the main headquarters of ISSF are good people, but do you know what happens in the different country delegations? Sometimes, they have their own agenda to meet their own personal interests. Also, they do participate in those yearly meetings together with some military grades to discuss further developements in civilian gun law--politicians just approve their conclusions. By the way, do you know in certain countries a shooter may face less potencial problems going from home to the range with a 22lr pistol than an 4.5mm airgun? Do you know in certain countries handloading is, either, forbidden or restricted so the ISSF federated clubs are the only ones selling ammunition? As in to increase their gains and I know of at least one country where the local ISSF delegation intervened directly in such restrictions. Do you know what kind of prosecussion a shooter may face in certain countries if he or she decides to do otherwise even when it's just in the interest of the sport? Do you know in some countries your ISSF scores dictate how many weapons you can currently posses? I.e. you score over 500 points for a year that means you can own a certain number of weapons. You fail to reach that score for a year you got to kiss bye bye to some of your weapons.

While I cannot say what design I would favor for a new Centerfire gun I can say I had both Pardini SP pistols and Feinwerkbau AW93 pistols in 22lr... both are quite different designs yet I highly value the finish, quality, longevity, reliability, etc of the AW93. I don't know if the AW93 design is less forgiving to poor technique or what but the thing is I just kept improving with the AW93 and I score way higher than I did with those Pardinis.

Regarding the caliber I'd say just go with the most sold case worldwide. Does the 32ACP case sell more worldwide than the 32Long case? If so, go with the 32ACP case and don't look back! The most sold case should be cheaper and easier to obtain and also may come loaded with more bullet choices. Or in other words, low runs of certain niche cases certainly sell for a premium.

I highly value the contribution of Schatzperson among other individuals who have been fighting day by day so all people can profit from more friendly gun laws which in turn means there's going to be more shooters intersted in sport shooting. That be just Malta, the whole EU or the whole world. We need more people like them.

I'm really sad to have to discuss politics in a sport forum but the ISSF means politics in some countries--be it their fault or not.

[David Levene]

I'm really sad to have to discuss politics in a sport forum but the ISSF means politics in some countries--be it their fault or not.

All of what you say might be true, or it might not.

If legislators/politicians in certain countries feel that ISSF's style of shooting is one they are happy with then that is certainly not the ISSF's fault; nor is it any reason for the ISSF to change their rules to include other events or equipment.

If officials of National Governing Bodies act against the best interests of their sport in their country then it is down to that body's membership to get rid of them. It is certainly not something over which the ISSF have any control.

[Spencer]

Thank you for your input Spencer.
Your preference for a forward magazine, given an adjustable grip angle is noted. Could you please elaborate on your choice ?
By reliability I meant correct cycling consistently; A lot of people consider the 32 Long to be detrimental to this, mainly because its really a revolver round. My consideration of the 32ACP as replacment was because I have seen it function reliably in so called pocket guns; The semi-rim and diameter to length ration might play a part here.

a forward magazine allows greater accommodation in the pistol grip - if the magazine is in grip this severely limits the degree of accommodation for smaller hands and fingers

the reliability of .32ACP round in commercial pocket pistols with their loose fitting tolerances and slightly over-charged (for the pistol) ammunition will not necessarily transpose to reliability in target pistols.

For me (and thousands of others?) the .32S&WL presents no reliability problems. I have a lower malfunction rate with my .32SWL CF semi-auto than I do with my standard pistols

[RobinC]

I have followed this thread with great interest for days, it has been most entertaining, its drifted of thread onto some equaly interesting ones surrounding the ISSF and the Olympics.
The ISSF run the rules, if we don't like them we should get our delegates to fight our corner, to me the biggest problem with the ISSF is it does little for the grass roots of our sport and is too interested in elitism.
The Olympics and the IOC on the other hand is a hypocritical joke, it has even less to do with sport, it has professional "athletes", joke events for commercial benefit, and it does not even get close to its declared ethos. One of those is about developing sport for all, the Olympics should leave a host country with a plethora of Olympic standard facilities. Britain is spending £45Million on an Olympic shooting facility which will be torn down after the event, shooting in Britain will get little from the Games, if you wish to chew over hypocracy, some of the shooting events are even illegal in Britain!
But to the Thead! Schatz and Spencer, you lucky devils!! I shot CF with various pistols, a K38 S&W, Walther GSP .32, and my favorite, the TOZ 36 7.62 revolver, all handguns are now banned in Britain bar air pistols and a Freepistol with bars welded on! Oh and some black powder pistols are permitted.
I would happily shoot it now with a Webley 38 if I could!!! I have even pulled out the old Walther LP53 recoiling air pistol on occasions to ward off the withdawl symptoms!
Best regards and a Happy New Yew
Robin

[Kimber]

Hi All,

Can anyone point me in direction of someone that Converts a 1911 to shoot .32 ACP.

Any help here would be great
Thanks a mill,

[Guest]

NCG Custom Guns made a .32 acp conversion for the M1911 pistol. They also made a gas delayed blowback conversion for the M1911 45 ACP pistol. The .45 conversion had many problems and few satisified customers.

The fisrt website is www.ncggasguns.com and appears to not be operational.

The company also has another website www.ncgguns.com which has two links, one for AR type rifles, which is working and the other for gas guns which is not operational at this time.

They also post a telephone number on the rifle side, but you might try calling and see what is the status of their 32 ACP conversion. 386-481-8131

[Dr. Jim]

I've been occasionally looking at the ngcgasguns site for a couple of years and wondered what they used for magazines as I understood their 32 was an SWL and not an ACP. In anycase, now moot as both sites are off line, the one that was working is gone - for "non-payment of fees".

Anyone know Mark, username 'mstot' who showed a picture of his 32SWL top unit for a colt frame in a 2007 message? Again I'm curious about magazine solutions.
Dr Jim

[schatzperson]

Wow ! is this thread still alive ?
Its still kicking around in my brain at least. Since last time we discussed the potential of .32 ACP for CF I did some tests on some garden variety 32 pocket pistols.
True some fired blunderbuss groups, but these were the ones with a barrel NOT ridgidly fixed to the frame (ala Browning style).

A month or so ago I bought a Walther PP, 70's vintage in .32 ACP.
It is in very good condition and appears to have been used barely.
Took it to an exposed range on a windy day;
Interesting results, all fired off hand, Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ (295M/S).

First group of 5 shots at 15 meters was an inch; Repeats showed that its capable of circa 2 cm at this range.
Dont know about you guys , but I am definitely tickled by these results; Thats 10 ring material at 25.

I mean the PP must have a trigger about as friendly as Genghis Khan with toothache and just as forgiving of bad technique.

The trigger breaks at over 2 KG's and when it does, you get the impression that a raging bull just kicked the barn door inside ( you gotta hold it in a near death grip, at least thats my impression).

The barrel is 9 cm long and not match grade.

Surely there must be scope for a serious target pistol in this caliber.
Thoughts ?