Any tips what to do about this swaying when shooting standing?
I know the correct balanceposition of the rifle over yr feet is very important, but any other tips?
Placement of the feet??
Another question about muscle relaxation; what muslegroups do you relax and what not?
forward/backward swaying
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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little_doodie
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:12 am
- Location: Easton, ma
swaying
Hi Yana,
(Lateral) Sway is the nemesis of all those who shoot offhand. If you have the chance, buy "Ways of the Rifle". This book addresses sway in depth. For now, however, you need to know that sway is caused by your body constantly trying to find the steadiest center-point of balance. There are several sources of sway. By building a solid position from the start and applying a few sway-specific techniques, you can make a great deal of headway quickly.
1) Your front foot should start by being exactly perpendicular to the target (parallel to the line of fire). This will align your hips to the target.
2) Your rifle must be positioned and balanced on the support arm in such a way that when you shift your hips over the front foot, complete balance is achieved over the center of that foot. This means that you will need to lean back slightly as you shift forward so that you can get the weight of the rifle (which would normally pull you off balance) OVER that front foot. You will most likely need to experiment with different hand-holds. Everyone has different geometry and no single handhold works for everyone. Right now, an open hand hold seems to be the trend, but a fist is also preferred by some. Advice: Watch the ISSF Finals for variations - there are an unlimited number.
3) The back foot is a stabilizing anchor. Once you have achieved the balance from the rifle down to the front foot, you will need to use the back foot to either spread out your center of balance or reign it in. You also use the back foot to orient yourself to the target (by moving it to the left of right). You will need to experiment with how it affects the balance you achieved over the front foot. Position of the back foot is INSTRUMENTAL in anchoring the position and reducing sway considerably. Again, experiment IN DEPTH with the position of this foot.
4) Now...once you have your balance point, a relatively comfortable position, and your target orientation (general). You need to do what I call the "Sway test". Bring your gun up into position. Close your eyes and INTENTIONALLY SWAY (gently) and slow down the sway slowly until you are perfectly balanced. Now open your eyes. Where is the target? Where is the bull you need to aim at? Wherever it is, relative to your current position, make micro movements in your feet (usually very slight shifts), and do the same sway test over again and again until your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) leaves you pointed directly at your target/bull every time you finish the sway test.
Yana, if you watch the ISSF TV Final of the Sydney World Cup, you need to pay close attention to Matt Emmons. He is usually the last one to shoot and the camera caught nearly every one of his shots. You will see the "sway test" quite visibly. He has incorporated it into every shot. Many shooters do. It allows him to ensure that he is perfectly balanced and that his NPA is dead on target EVERY TIME. Personally, I have watched Matt during training many many times. He makes many adjustments along the way to achieve his perfect position. He even makes micro-adjustments to his buttplate to ensure that he is not sacrificing proper geometry - even with regard to to THAT PARTICULAR ranges' target height.
Note: If offhand, depending on your body type, you may need to add riser blocks to your sight configuration. The head needs to be positioned as upright as you can get it. You've got a LOT of weight there and if it is bent or twisted, it can offset your balance efforts quite a bit. You should be able to find your balance point and slowly (gently) add your head to your cheek piece without disturbing the center of gravity. The risers really help a great deal to alleviate neck strain and allow the head to arrive on the cheek piece in the proper position. This, like all of this stuff, will take thousands of practice shots. Just remember that all things "offhand" are slow and deliberate.
You should also know that you will need to incorporate a defined visualization (mental imagery) regimen that will work in unison to steady your mind as well as your position. Visualizing things like your sway test, your shot process from the moment you start breathing to the execution of your shot ( a perfect 10 of course!), imaging your legs made of cement (or being stuck in cement) along with seeing every 10 before you fire it can really boost your performance. If you make yourself a master of the mental game as you refine your position, you will make strides far faster than you can imagine.
I hope this helps. It's all pretty basic, but you should be able to get very far by simply incorporating the "sway test". Good luck. BParnall
(Lateral) Sway is the nemesis of all those who shoot offhand. If you have the chance, buy "Ways of the Rifle". This book addresses sway in depth. For now, however, you need to know that sway is caused by your body constantly trying to find the steadiest center-point of balance. There are several sources of sway. By building a solid position from the start and applying a few sway-specific techniques, you can make a great deal of headway quickly.
1) Your front foot should start by being exactly perpendicular to the target (parallel to the line of fire). This will align your hips to the target.
2) Your rifle must be positioned and balanced on the support arm in such a way that when you shift your hips over the front foot, complete balance is achieved over the center of that foot. This means that you will need to lean back slightly as you shift forward so that you can get the weight of the rifle (which would normally pull you off balance) OVER that front foot. You will most likely need to experiment with different hand-holds. Everyone has different geometry and no single handhold works for everyone. Right now, an open hand hold seems to be the trend, but a fist is also preferred by some. Advice: Watch the ISSF Finals for variations - there are an unlimited number.
3) The back foot is a stabilizing anchor. Once you have achieved the balance from the rifle down to the front foot, you will need to use the back foot to either spread out your center of balance or reign it in. You also use the back foot to orient yourself to the target (by moving it to the left of right). You will need to experiment with how it affects the balance you achieved over the front foot. Position of the back foot is INSTRUMENTAL in anchoring the position and reducing sway considerably. Again, experiment IN DEPTH with the position of this foot.
4) Now...once you have your balance point, a relatively comfortable position, and your target orientation (general). You need to do what I call the "Sway test". Bring your gun up into position. Close your eyes and INTENTIONALLY SWAY (gently) and slow down the sway slowly until you are perfectly balanced. Now open your eyes. Where is the target? Where is the bull you need to aim at? Wherever it is, relative to your current position, make micro movements in your feet (usually very slight shifts), and do the same sway test over again and again until your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) leaves you pointed directly at your target/bull every time you finish the sway test.
Yana, if you watch the ISSF TV Final of the Sydney World Cup, you need to pay close attention to Matt Emmons. He is usually the last one to shoot and the camera caught nearly every one of his shots. You will see the "sway test" quite visibly. He has incorporated it into every shot. Many shooters do. It allows him to ensure that he is perfectly balanced and that his NPA is dead on target EVERY TIME. Personally, I have watched Matt during training many many times. He makes many adjustments along the way to achieve his perfect position. He even makes micro-adjustments to his buttplate to ensure that he is not sacrificing proper geometry - even with regard to to THAT PARTICULAR ranges' target height.
Note: If offhand, depending on your body type, you may need to add riser blocks to your sight configuration. The head needs to be positioned as upright as you can get it. You've got a LOT of weight there and if it is bent or twisted, it can offset your balance efforts quite a bit. You should be able to find your balance point and slowly (gently) add your head to your cheek piece without disturbing the center of gravity. The risers really help a great deal to alleviate neck strain and allow the head to arrive on the cheek piece in the proper position. This, like all of this stuff, will take thousands of practice shots. Just remember that all things "offhand" are slow and deliberate.
You should also know that you will need to incorporate a defined visualization (mental imagery) regimen that will work in unison to steady your mind as well as your position. Visualizing things like your sway test, your shot process from the moment you start breathing to the execution of your shot ( a perfect 10 of course!), imaging your legs made of cement (or being stuck in cement) along with seeing every 10 before you fire it can really boost your performance. If you make yourself a master of the mental game as you refine your position, you will make strides far faster than you can imagine.
I hope this helps. It's all pretty basic, but you should be able to get very far by simply incorporating the "sway test". Good luck. BParnall
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yana
Thanks Bart for yr answer! I'll try experimenting with the right foot.
The cause of the swaying is partly a physical one. I'm quite long for a female, 1.80m, and overflexible in my joints..Also in my ankles, they're very weak. I already do balance exercises regularly to improve the ankles and my balance.
Weapon balance might be a point too. I stand fairly upright, allthough I cán, cause of my flexibility, very easily stand in an extreme position. I avoid this on purpose though, cause the flexibility also causes my vertebrae to shift ad random when I overdo, causing pain and other problems.
The cause of the swaying is partly a physical one. I'm quite long for a female, 1.80m, and overflexible in my joints..Also in my ankles, they're very weak. I already do balance exercises regularly to improve the ankles and my balance.
Weapon balance might be a point too. I stand fairly upright, allthough I cán, cause of my flexibility, very easily stand in an extreme position. I avoid this on purpose though, cause the flexibility also causes my vertebrae to shift ad random when I overdo, causing pain and other problems.
Balance board
Hi yana,
I am also fairly tall. Just over 6 ft. I thought you might benefit greatly from using a balance board. At first, I simply tried to maintain normal standing position. then I moved my weight to my front foot and mastered the balance. Then I added the gun. THIS took a great many attempts and hours while I watched television or listened to my radio, but eventually I got it down. The hardest part? Standing on the board, balanced and centered, I drew a black dot on the wall and started the process of achieving my NPA WITH the blocks under my feet. It seems impossible at first, but, like all things, it improved with time. One of the benefits of this type of training comes from the comparison of balance between USING the blocks and then NOT using them. Once you get OFF the blocks, things are so much more steady - it produces a rock solid feeling of steadiness.
One other thing. AS you move through the process of building your position, you will most likely feel small, developing pressure points in your feet. Pay close attention to them They represent uneven distributions that only make themselves known after a number of shots have been fired. Your body tries to compensate for small fluctuations in balance, and although you may not FEEL them at first, they will allow you to further refine your position by knowing how to relieve those pressures in a constructive manner.
And I agree totally about the above comment on muscle tension. If your front foot is turned perpendicular to the target, it will "lock" your frame. The trick is to NOT turn your hips toward the target. Simply "shift" your hips laterally forward, bring the gun up and over your chest, lean back slightly, and allow natural balance to occur. Then it's time to mentally and physically relax all the rest of your muscles to achieve the steadiness you desire.
Bp
I am also fairly tall. Just over 6 ft. I thought you might benefit greatly from using a balance board. At first, I simply tried to maintain normal standing position. then I moved my weight to my front foot and mastered the balance. Then I added the gun. THIS took a great many attempts and hours while I watched television or listened to my radio, but eventually I got it down. The hardest part? Standing on the board, balanced and centered, I drew a black dot on the wall and started the process of achieving my NPA WITH the blocks under my feet. It seems impossible at first, but, like all things, it improved with time. One of the benefits of this type of training comes from the comparison of balance between USING the blocks and then NOT using them. Once you get OFF the blocks, things are so much more steady - it produces a rock solid feeling of steadiness.
One other thing. AS you move through the process of building your position, you will most likely feel small, developing pressure points in your feet. Pay close attention to them They represent uneven distributions that only make themselves known after a number of shots have been fired. Your body tries to compensate for small fluctuations in balance, and although you may not FEEL them at first, they will allow you to further refine your position by knowing how to relieve those pressures in a constructive manner.
And I agree totally about the above comment on muscle tension. If your front foot is turned perpendicular to the target, it will "lock" your frame. The trick is to NOT turn your hips toward the target. Simply "shift" your hips laterally forward, bring the gun up and over your chest, lean back slightly, and allow natural balance to occur. Then it's time to mentally and physically relax all the rest of your muscles to achieve the steadiness you desire.
Bp
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yana
There are several balance boards. The 'real' one's, rounded at the bottom, often used for therapy etc. I wonder wether you can stand still on those!;)
And you can make 1 yrself, more suited for shooting. With a wooden board and a small bar made underneath. Quite easy to do.
I'm a trainer myself but, for now, a basic trainer. So only the basics. So I know a lot already, but coaching yrself isnt easy!;)
I often encounter problems they didnt tell me about in the trainercourse..;)
I had my husband check the rifles balance. It wás to far to my toes, as expected (over the toes'knuckles so to speak). Leaning back solves this.
But leaning back makes yr hip and belly go forward and that tends to shift the weight forward again.
I already ordered my balance board few months ago, still not in though..
I dó often do some balance and back stabilising exersizes at home.
If it takes too long, I'll make a board myself out of wood for now..
And you can make 1 yrself, more suited for shooting. With a wooden board and a small bar made underneath. Quite easy to do.
I'm a trainer myself but, for now, a basic trainer. So only the basics. So I know a lot already, but coaching yrself isnt easy!;)
I often encounter problems they didnt tell me about in the trainercourse..;)
I had my husband check the rifles balance. It wás to far to my toes, as expected (over the toes'knuckles so to speak). Leaning back solves this.
But leaning back makes yr hip and belly go forward and that tends to shift the weight forward again.
I already ordered my balance board few months ago, still not in though..
I dó often do some balance and back stabilising exersizes at home.
If it takes too long, I'll make a board myself out of wood for now..
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Let me appluad Bart Ps input. Clearly an excelent description of relevent information relating to tha standing position. and so clearly written as to be very helpful to both shooters and coaches. Congratulations for a job well done!!! Good Shooting Bill Horton
One additional tip from my AR coach.
If you cannot raise the sights enough, cant the rifle.
I have my sights on risers, but I still cant the rifle over to the left.
This allows me to keep my head upright, and I don't feel like I want to fall face forward.
The TRICKY part about canting are
#1 Keeping the angle of cant the same from shot to shot. A front sight insert with a horizontal bar helps by giving you a visual reference that you can compare to something downrange.
#2 When you cant the rifle, the rear sight is now at an angle. When you adjust vertical, the sight is moving up and to the left, NOT straight UP. So if you have to adjust your shots straight UP, you have to adjust both vertical and horizontal adjustment to go straight up. There are rear sights which are adjustable for cant (and like a dummy I did not get one when I had the chance). Or you adjust based on a canted reference on the target, where vertical is the amount of cant you hold the rifle.
If you cannot raise the sights enough, cant the rifle.
I have my sights on risers, but I still cant the rifle over to the left.
This allows me to keep my head upright, and I don't feel like I want to fall face forward.
The TRICKY part about canting are
#1 Keeping the angle of cant the same from shot to shot. A front sight insert with a horizontal bar helps by giving you a visual reference that you can compare to something downrange.
#2 When you cant the rifle, the rear sight is now at an angle. When you adjust vertical, the sight is moving up and to the left, NOT straight UP. So if you have to adjust your shots straight UP, you have to adjust both vertical and horizontal adjustment to go straight up. There are rear sights which are adjustable for cant (and like a dummy I did not get one when I had the chance). Or you adjust based on a canted reference on the target, where vertical is the amount of cant you hold the rifle.
I built my own, guys. Although I liked the versions you see in "Ways...", I thought it best to create a single flat surface with a centerline I could orient exactly to the target.
At my shop, I cut out a perfect circle from 3/4" plywood. then I bisected the circle at a 4" depth on two sides to create two shallow flat-sided crescents. The board itself was a 3/4" piece of plywood 2' x 4'. I attached a 2' piece of 2x4 longways on the bottom centerline and placed the semi-circles on either end. I use GLUE AND SCREWS on everything. Nails are fine to set the pieces, but they will not hold up over time.
The board will be easier to manage on carpet at first. It will be very unstable on a hard surface, but over time, you will manage. If you need to stabilize the board to a degree, you can add an extra 1' piece of 2x4 to the outer edge to prevent the board from dipping the full 4" every time balance is lost.
Eventually, you can just walk up onto the board from any direction and be perfectly stable. The trick is to do it in position, with your balance over the lead foot, holding your gun (which actually tends to help - added weight up high and spread out), and AIMING.
Good luck. Bart
At my shop, I cut out a perfect circle from 3/4" plywood. then I bisected the circle at a 4" depth on two sides to create two shallow flat-sided crescents. The board itself was a 3/4" piece of plywood 2' x 4'. I attached a 2' piece of 2x4 longways on the bottom centerline and placed the semi-circles on either end. I use GLUE AND SCREWS on everything. Nails are fine to set the pieces, but they will not hold up over time.
The board will be easier to manage on carpet at first. It will be very unstable on a hard surface, but over time, you will manage. If you need to stabilize the board to a degree, you can add an extra 1' piece of 2x4 to the outer edge to prevent the board from dipping the full 4" every time balance is lost.
Eventually, you can just walk up onto the board from any direction and be perfectly stable. The trick is to do it in position, with your balance over the lead foot, holding your gun (which actually tends to help - added weight up high and spread out), and AIMING.
Good luck. Bart
Balance Board
Thank You.
Finally a concise answer.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Regards
Michael
Finally a concise answer.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Regards
Michael
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yana
With my old stance the rifles middle is just behind the toes. It shóuld be about middle foot, so I tried shifting my body more backwards.
However, I'm NOT more stable this way, allthough the rifle's centre ís better!?
Anyone similar experiences?
I read in yuryev's book(the stance pics) that there wére more russian shooters with the balance more in front..
However, I'm NOT more stable this way, allthough the rifle's centre ís better!?
Anyone similar experiences?
I read in yuryev's book(the stance pics) that there wére more russian shooters with the balance more in front..
could you upload a couple pictures please?BartP wrote:I built my own, guys. Although I liked the versions you see in "Ways...", I thought it best to create a single flat surface with a centerline I could orient exactly to the target.
At my shop, I cut out a perfect circle from 3/4" plywood. then I bisected the circle at a 4" depth on two sides to create two shallow flat-sided crescents. The board itself was a 3/4" piece of plywood 2' x 4'. I attached a 2' piece of 2x4 longways on the bottom centerline and placed the semi-circles on either end. I use GLUE AND SCREWS on everything. Nails are fine to set the pieces, but they will not hold up over time.
The board will be easier to manage on carpet at first. It will be very unstable on a hard surface, but over time, you will manage. If you need to stabilize the board to a degree, you can add an extra 1' piece of 2x4 to the outer edge to prevent the board from dipping the full 4" every time balance is lost.
Eventually, you can just walk up onto the board from any direction and be perfectly stable. The trick is to do it in position, with your balance over the lead foot, holding your gun (which actually tends to help - added weight up high and spread out), and AIMING.
Good luck. Bart
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melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
I came across an interesting balance board set up used by circus performers called the "rola bola" or "bongo board". Make your own or buy.
http://www.wejuggle2.com/rolabola.php?Clas=build
http://www.amazon.com/Fitter-First-Bong ... roduct_top
I have to think that if you can get to the point where you can shoot standing on one of these, you have some very good balance.
http://www.wejuggle2.com/rolabola.php?Clas=build
http://www.amazon.com/Fitter-First-Bong ... roduct_top
I have to think that if you can get to the point where you can shoot standing on one of these, you have some very good balance.
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GuestBP