I would like to start shooting prone again after 28 years away due to school,career,family,etc. Whole Anschutz line has changes as have scopes,etc. I would like advice on a new rifle and all other equipment for prone only. All comments welcome. I previously shot an ANschutz 1413 with a McMillan barrel. What would be a comparable prone rifle in 2009?
Anyone in North Carolina?
R,
Bill
Away from shooting for 28 years. Prone update requested.
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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infantrytrophy
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:29 pm
- Location: Virginia
Back to smallbore
Welcome back! For what it's worth, here is my experience returning to smallbore shooting after a long absence (40 years!).
I purchased an Anschutz 2013 smallbore rifle with the aluminum stock. This was a model with a 660 mm barrel from Champion Shooters Supply. I believe that the standard model 2013 comes with a slightly heavier 690 mm barrel. The 660 mm barrel is perfect for me - I couldn't imagine wanting anything any heavier (I am 6 ft 2 in tall and weigh about 168 lbs).
The infinite adjustments of the aluminum stock are overwhelming at first, but once you get used to the adjustments it works pretty well. The adjustment ranges are much better than the corresponding air rifle, which is limited by ISSF rules.
Some long-time shooters in my area (SE Virginia) tried to tell me that the new Anschutz action (identified by a flat shape on the top of the receiver action and only two mounting screws) was inferior to the old Anschutz actions, which had 4 screws. That has not been my experience - the accuracy is excellent with Eley Team ammo and SK Standard Plus. I have removed the action from the stock then reinstalled it, and there was no change in zero or in accuracy. I have heard from others who disassemble the action/barrel from the stock in order to travel, and they state also that the accuracy remains excellent.
The trigger is perfect. There are readily-available instructions on adjusting the trigger, but I wouldn't even think of changing mine. It remains adjusted just the way it came out of the box about 18 months ago.
Your biggest challenge is likely to be your vision correction. After about age 40 or so all of us develop presbyopia, or inability to focus on near objects due to stiffness in the lens of the eye. You will probably need corrective lenses in order to focus on the front sight. It may also help to attach a sight extension tube to the muzzle. This introduces additional issues, such as requiring a change in front aperture size and changing your zero.
I have shot in iron sight as well as "any sight" matches, and I would recommend this for you, also. Shooting with a scope easily demonstrates increases in your wobble due to inconsistencies in your position, imperfect NPA, or other problems. When you work out these position-related issues with the feedback available using the scope, this will improve your scores using iron sights as well.
When I try to discuss these vision-related issues with some of our junior shooters, they look at me like I'm crazy. Most of them have near-perfect vision (even though they may need correction for near-sighted or far-sighted issues). They cannot understand our inability to rapidly change focus from front sight to target and back to the front sight again.
One last point - eye fatigue will be an issue, as well. You will try to focus on the front sight, and this will result in eye fatigue. You need to learn to break each shot as quickly as possilbe after obtaining a "good enough" sight picture. If you keep staring at the front sight/target too long, your eye will fatigue and result in a poor shot. You can reduce eye fatigue by learning to shoot quickly and by keeping well hydrated. Drink lots of water before and during matches.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Randy Sikes
I purchased an Anschutz 2013 smallbore rifle with the aluminum stock. This was a model with a 660 mm barrel from Champion Shooters Supply. I believe that the standard model 2013 comes with a slightly heavier 690 mm barrel. The 660 mm barrel is perfect for me - I couldn't imagine wanting anything any heavier (I am 6 ft 2 in tall and weigh about 168 lbs).
The infinite adjustments of the aluminum stock are overwhelming at first, but once you get used to the adjustments it works pretty well. The adjustment ranges are much better than the corresponding air rifle, which is limited by ISSF rules.
Some long-time shooters in my area (SE Virginia) tried to tell me that the new Anschutz action (identified by a flat shape on the top of the receiver action and only two mounting screws) was inferior to the old Anschutz actions, which had 4 screws. That has not been my experience - the accuracy is excellent with Eley Team ammo and SK Standard Plus. I have removed the action from the stock then reinstalled it, and there was no change in zero or in accuracy. I have heard from others who disassemble the action/barrel from the stock in order to travel, and they state also that the accuracy remains excellent.
The trigger is perfect. There are readily-available instructions on adjusting the trigger, but I wouldn't even think of changing mine. It remains adjusted just the way it came out of the box about 18 months ago.
Your biggest challenge is likely to be your vision correction. After about age 40 or so all of us develop presbyopia, or inability to focus on near objects due to stiffness in the lens of the eye. You will probably need corrective lenses in order to focus on the front sight. It may also help to attach a sight extension tube to the muzzle. This introduces additional issues, such as requiring a change in front aperture size and changing your zero.
I have shot in iron sight as well as "any sight" matches, and I would recommend this for you, also. Shooting with a scope easily demonstrates increases in your wobble due to inconsistencies in your position, imperfect NPA, or other problems. When you work out these position-related issues with the feedback available using the scope, this will improve your scores using iron sights as well.
When I try to discuss these vision-related issues with some of our junior shooters, they look at me like I'm crazy. Most of them have near-perfect vision (even though they may need correction for near-sighted or far-sighted issues). They cannot understand our inability to rapidly change focus from front sight to target and back to the front sight again.
One last point - eye fatigue will be an issue, as well. You will try to focus on the front sight, and this will result in eye fatigue. You need to learn to break each shot as quickly as possilbe after obtaining a "good enough" sight picture. If you keep staring at the front sight/target too long, your eye will fatigue and result in a poor shot. You can reduce eye fatigue by learning to shoot quickly and by keeping well hydrated. Drink lots of water before and during matches.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Randy Sikes
Bill,
Where in NC are you located? I am heavily involved in smallbore here and you will likely see me in any smallbore match anywhere in the state. Creedmoor and Asheville are where the vast majority of the prone matches happen. I can give you a more detailed schedule later, but the next prone match is a one day metric 1200 any sights match in Creedmoor at Sir Walter Gun Club (sirwaltergunclub.com).
As for guns, I shoot the little known 1613 (from what I've heard, it was only sold in Europe and only for a short time). If you purchase just about anything that ends in XX12 or XX13 with the XX being 18 or greater, you'll be very well off. Prone only rifles have somewhat died off. Keep your eye out on the trade section here. I don't know of anyone in NC selling a rifle you'd be interested in, but I will let you know if I hear something.
Hope to see you on the range soon.
Soupy
Where in NC are you located? I am heavily involved in smallbore here and you will likely see me in any smallbore match anywhere in the state. Creedmoor and Asheville are where the vast majority of the prone matches happen. I can give you a more detailed schedule later, but the next prone match is a one day metric 1200 any sights match in Creedmoor at Sir Walter Gun Club (sirwaltergunclub.com).
As for guns, I shoot the little known 1613 (from what I've heard, it was only sold in Europe and only for a short time). If you purchase just about anything that ends in XX12 or XX13 with the XX being 18 or greater, you'll be very well off. Prone only rifles have somewhat died off. Keep your eye out on the trade section here. I don't know of anyone in NC selling a rifle you'd be interested in, but I will let you know if I hear something.
Hope to see you on the range soon.
Soupy
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Shooting Kiwi
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:33 am
- Location: New Zealand
I'd like to reinforce what Randy says about vision. Us old guys need all the help we can get. A trip to a shooting-aware optometrist will be money well spent. Then spend more on a fancy rear sight ('diopter' as some Europeans call them) with filters etc.
If you need vision correction, do try a contact lens - so much less hassle than shooting frames.
If you need vision correction, do try a contact lens - so much less hassle than shooting frames.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Vision issues are critical as mentioned. I have had Lasik surgery but still have presbyopia.
Soupy, I am in Wilmington. I have a few more questions. Are the metric match conducted as international rules or NRA? Heavy coat vs. Light as we used to say?
What are peoples thoughts on available barrel lenghts? Shorter with sight extension vs. 690mm?
Thanks,
Bill
Soupy, I am in Wilmington. I have a few more questions. Are the metric match conducted as international rules or NRA? Heavy coat vs. Light as we used to say?
What are peoples thoughts on available barrel lenghts? Shorter with sight extension vs. 690mm?
Thanks,
Bill
99% of the prone matches held in NC are under NRA rules, so you can go with either coat. The Blackhawk Open held over memorial day weekend sometimes has an international English match and 3P on Memorial day, but that's about it for that.
Prone shooters usually go for the full length barrel and a sight extension. Some 3P shooters use the shorter with a huge extension, but I'm not a fan of it. Some claim it's for a shorter time between the trigger pull and the bullet exiting the barrel, others do it for balance issues.
Prone shooters usually go for the full length barrel and a sight extension. Some 3P shooters use the shorter with a huge extension, but I'm not a fan of it. Some claim it's for a shorter time between the trigger pull and the bullet exiting the barrel, others do it for balance issues.
Re: Back to smallbore
Other way round. The round, cylindrical 19-series actions have 2 screws, the square 20-series actions have 4 screws.infantrytrophy wrote:Some long-time shooters in my area (SE Virginia) tried to tell me that the new Anschutz action (identified by a flat shape on the top of the receiver action and only two mounting screws) was inferior to the old Anschutz actions, which had 4 screws.
Welcome back to the sport. A 1913 or 2013 Anschutz in wood or metal will shoot just fine out the box. The best bet however is to get down to a club and try as many different stocks as possible, as there are a bewildering range of stocks available including the factory stocks from Anschutz (wood or metal), Feinwerkbau (metal), Walther (metal) and Bleiker (metal), and the aftermarkets from MEC, HPS Ltd, the Evolution 600s (made by a British bloke), Kepler, etc, etc.
Having chosen your stock and action, you might then even opt for a 3rd party barrel - say from Lilja in the states, or Border Barrels in the UK.
There's two ways of doing it really:
1. Get a standard Anschutz or whatever, and as you ease back into the sport, buy aftermarket components to suit (expensive if you decide to get a totally different stock or barrel/action combo)
2. Get to a club, work out what you want and buy a semi-custom from the outset (i.e. a non-standard stock, or specialist barrel - Lilja, etc).
FWIW, Matt Emmons has shot pretty darned well with an Anschutz 1913 in a standard walnut thumbhole stock in the not so distant past.
Anschutz models
What are the significant differences between the Anschutz 1913,2007, and 2013? Their website lists specs such as 660mm vs.690mm barrel length and wood vs. aluminum stocks but what are the real, tangible differences? (Given that shooting is like golf meaning one can buy the same clubs as Tiger Woods does not a Masters champion make.)
Re: Anschutz models
No one's jumped in yet so I'll take a crack.mccuskey wrote:What are the significant differences between the Anschutz 1913,2007, and 2013? Their website lists specs such as 660mm vs.690mm barrel length and wood vs. aluminum stocks but what are the real, tangible differences?
The 1913 is the traditional "round" Match 54 action with two bedding screws that debuted way back in the 1950s -- it's just been updated along the way. I think the 1900-series Match 54 came out in the late 1980s but I'm sure someone will correct me on this.
The 2007 and 2013 share the "square" Match 54 action with four bedding screws that was launched in the late 1990s. The main differences are the diameter and length of barrels with the 2007 (along with the 1907) having smaller and shorter barrels. There was a 2013 with a 500 mm barrel and bloop tube but that was discontinued a few years ago.
The triggers, sights, stocks, buttplates, etc. are (I believe) identical between each model. You can even use a round action in a square action stock if you buy the correct adapter.
A lot of shooters are choosing smaller, lighter barrels because you can add weights until you find the right balance, whereas the longer, heavier barrels aren't nearly as flexible. I have a 1913 with the old style wood stock (cheekpiece is only adjustable for height) and it's great. I only shoot prone so the extra weight isn't a big deal.
Jason
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Guest
The 1913 is Anschutz current Match 54 Supermatch; the barrel is essentially similar to the 1411 that you said you used (before it was rebarreled). The bolt has been improved a little, and the trigger is nicer, but the barrel/action is pretty much the same. A 1913 Stock is rather different to your old 1411, it the full thumbhole-grip hook-butt Supermatch job. The 1913 wood and 2213 aluminum use the same butt and cheekpiece hardware; the 1913 has a slighly deeper fore-end (much the same as a 1411) that the 2213, however the 2213 has a pistol grip that can be moved about.
The 2007 and the 2013 can be had with exactly the same stocks as the 1913. The 2013 uses the same sights, trigger and 27in barrel as a 1913, but in a heavier action (four bedding bolts). 1913 barrels are pinned into the action, but 2013 barrels are clamped; 2013 barrels can be swapped with little more than a torque wrench and a headspace gauge. The 2007 has the same sights, and trigger, but a lighter barrel, equivalent to the 1407 ISU Standard rifle.
Some shooters prefer a wooden stocks, usually because they "feel" better. Some think that wood is more forgiving and absorbs recoil better. Metal stocks are bit slimmer and offer a little more ergonomic adjustment. Metal stocks also don't swell or warp in damp weather, so don't get epoxy bedded. You would have to try out both to decide what you like. There is also the option of getting a US-made prone stock if you don't want a Supermatch.
My advice would be to turn up to a match and have a look around.
Good luck
Tim S
Exeter UK
The 2007 and the 2013 can be had with exactly the same stocks as the 1913. The 2013 uses the same sights, trigger and 27in barrel as a 1913, but in a heavier action (four bedding bolts). 1913 barrels are pinned into the action, but 2013 barrels are clamped; 2013 barrels can be swapped with little more than a torque wrench and a headspace gauge. The 2007 has the same sights, and trigger, but a lighter barrel, equivalent to the 1407 ISU Standard rifle.
Some shooters prefer a wooden stocks, usually because they "feel" better. Some think that wood is more forgiving and absorbs recoil better. Metal stocks are bit slimmer and offer a little more ergonomic adjustment. Metal stocks also don't swell or warp in damp weather, so don't get epoxy bedded. You would have to try out both to decide what you like. There is also the option of getting a US-made prone stock if you don't want a Supermatch.
My advice would be to turn up to a match and have a look around.
Good luck
Tim S
Exeter UK
1913 vs. 2013
Lets run this one up the flagpole. What are the pros and cons of both rifles. Which would you buy? Any documented difference in potential accuracy?
Re: 1913 vs. 2013
If only it were that simple. I would buy whichever model best fitted me and felt best balanced etc. I would also like to see how it felt on the shot, after trying another rifle that I thought felt 'tinny' despite being a top of the range, current model from another maker.mccuskey wrote:Lets run this one up the flagpole. What are the pros and cons of both rifles. Which would you buy? Any documented difference in potential accuracy?
Rob.
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Gl17oxford
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:50 am
- Location: Oxford, Ohio
The Anschutz codes are a little more indepth than the technical differences noted above (barrel clamped/pinned to action, etc).
In essence there are two choices of action:
19-series (round - like the Match 54)
20-series (square)
and then a multitude of barrels:
03 - lightest, for juniors. Most will outgrow them quickly
07 - light, a common choice for club guns and juniors
12 - the "Ladies barrel". A premium, heavy barrel, but lighter than the "13" to help conform with ISSF weight regs for Ladies rifles, and to suit the typically lighter build of female shooters
13 - the full-weight Premium barrel (usually marked up as "xx13 Supermatch")
So when you see "1913", It's a 19- action with a -13 barrel, a "1903" is a 19- action with an -03 barrel, a "2007" is a 20- action with an -07 barrel, etc.
In essence there are two choices of action:
19-series (round - like the Match 54)
20-series (square)
and then a multitude of barrels:
03 - lightest, for juniors. Most will outgrow them quickly
07 - light, a common choice for club guns and juniors
12 - the "Ladies barrel". A premium, heavy barrel, but lighter than the "13" to help conform with ISSF weight regs for Ladies rifles, and to suit the typically lighter build of female shooters
13 - the full-weight Premium barrel (usually marked up as "xx13 Supermatch")
So when you see "1913", It's a 19- action with a -13 barrel, a "1903" is a 19- action with an -03 barrel, a "2007" is a 20- action with an -07 barrel, etc.
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Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
Bill - I'm in Raleigh and also a Sir Walter member along with Bill/Soupy. I own and shoot a 1913 in prone. I also came back to the sport after a long hiatus (25 years) and was compelled to go with the 1913. Note that all of the AMU shooters use wood stocks.
You'll also want 1/8 MOA sights like the 7020 package - neither the rifle or the sights are cheap. Also note that the 1913 with the adjustable buttplate and cheekpiece is great, especially when configuring for scope - different eye plane, different positioning, especially when adding scope rings over a 6811 scope mount.
For the sight issues, I tried an adjustable diopter and it failed me miserably (I'm 44 now). A pair of ugly-as-sin Jaggi frames with a single vision lens has made a significant difference since I can adjust the lens with the focal plane of the rear aperture. Made a HUGE difference; I haven't seen a bull look so clear in an iron sight since I was a teenager.
For the coat, I bought a stiff as a board canvas and leather one from Champion Shooters for $165. Yes, they make size 50, thank goodness.
There's a 1600 match on the 12th, why don't you think about driving north and checking things out? We don't bite (much) and we'll even answer questions (as long as they're good ones). Soupy gave you the website, look at the calendar and it will take you to the match announcement. There's probably only 8-12 shooters per match, so it certainly won't be crowded.
You'll also want 1/8 MOA sights like the 7020 package - neither the rifle or the sights are cheap. Also note that the 1913 with the adjustable buttplate and cheekpiece is great, especially when configuring for scope - different eye plane, different positioning, especially when adding scope rings over a 6811 scope mount.
For the sight issues, I tried an adjustable diopter and it failed me miserably (I'm 44 now). A pair of ugly-as-sin Jaggi frames with a single vision lens has made a significant difference since I can adjust the lens with the focal plane of the rear aperture. Made a HUGE difference; I haven't seen a bull look so clear in an iron sight since I was a teenager.
For the coat, I bought a stiff as a board canvas and leather one from Champion Shooters for $165. Yes, they make size 50, thank goodness.
There's a 1600 match on the 12th, why don't you think about driving north and checking things out? We don't bite (much) and we'll even answer questions (as long as they're good ones). Soupy gave you the website, look at the calendar and it will take you to the match announcement. There's probably only 8-12 shooters per match, so it certainly won't be crowded.
Hemmers wrote:The Anschutz codes are a little more indepth than the technical differences noted above (barrel clamped/pinned to action, etc).
In essence there are two choices of action:
19-series (round - like the Match 54)
20-series (square)
and then a multitude of barrels:
03 - lightest, for juniors. Most will outgrow them quickly
07 - light, a common choice for club guns and juniors
12 - the "Ladies barrel". A premium, heavy barrel, but lighter than the "13" to help conform with ISSF weight regs for Ladies rifles, and to suit the typically lighter build of female shooters
13 - the full-weight Premium barrel (usually marked up as "xx13 Supermatch")
So when you see "1913", It's a 19- action with a -13 barrel, a "1903" is a 19- action with an -03 barrel, a "2007" is a 20- action with an -07 barrel, etc.
Great information for demistifying the model codes. However, from what I am gathering not ALL 19 series anschutz are match 54 actions. Specifically your example 1903 is NOT a match 54 action but a match 64 action. Other 19xx rifles like the 1907 or 1913 rifles do have the match 54 action. Just trying to clarify things.
Gene
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Prone gun
Don't change a thing. Shoot your 1411 from 28 years ago. It is as good as anything today. It is too easy to get caught up in all the do-dads and bells and whistles and adjustments of the new guns. Spend your time and money testing different different lots of ammo, just like you did years ago.
When you shot prone 28 years before, just ask yourself one question.... How often did you have to make adjustments to your prone gun??? If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
Do you still have a wood rasp in your tool box.......
I was in the same boat as you about 3 years ago. Bought a pretty new 2013 Anschutz. Nice gun, except for the adjustments slipping constantly. I hold the gun pretty tight in prone. All of the do-dads and acessories and other gimmicks common today are just things to go wrong during a match. If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
If you have to make adjustments to a prone gun when you are shooting a match, you might as well go home, because you have already lost. You should be able to take the gun out of the case, walk to the line and shoot. If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
Do you remember back then, 28 years ago, that it was common knowledge that the most important part of the barrel was the crown area? That it must be perfectly machined, and damage free? Now days, they clamp whatever tube they can find on the end of the barrel to get more sight radius? Especially the juniors? You know, the kids with eyes far better than you and I?
Can you say "trendy"?
I really wish I was able to return my 1985 vintage 1813, that Karl Kenyon installed a Schneider barrel on in 1986, back to Karl for a new barrel before he retired. I love my Kenyon trigger. It smokes any Anschutz trigger I have used. And I am very fond of my Gates rear sight, and don't care for the Anschutz nearly as much.
If you buy the new gun, and shoot it for 6 months, you will know what I mean. It will look great in the safe, in the spot that had the 1411.
I always remember the best shooters had the ugliest guns....
Also, not to be mean, but pull up some old match bulletins from 28 years ago, and compare the scores to todays matches. This should give you a really good clue...
Sorry for the bluntness, but I think a reality check is sometimes needed.
I am sure you would like a new gun, as I did, because they are, in fact, very nice and pretty. But if you are coming here for confirmation that you need it, in order to justify the new gun purchase, then I would suggest you just shoot the 1411.
Jeff
When you shot prone 28 years before, just ask yourself one question.... How often did you have to make adjustments to your prone gun??? If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
Do you still have a wood rasp in your tool box.......
I was in the same boat as you about 3 years ago. Bought a pretty new 2013 Anschutz. Nice gun, except for the adjustments slipping constantly. I hold the gun pretty tight in prone. All of the do-dads and acessories and other gimmicks common today are just things to go wrong during a match. If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
If you have to make adjustments to a prone gun when you are shooting a match, you might as well go home, because you have already lost. You should be able to take the gun out of the case, walk to the line and shoot. If you were a master class shooter back then, you will know what I mean..
Do you remember back then, 28 years ago, that it was common knowledge that the most important part of the barrel was the crown area? That it must be perfectly machined, and damage free? Now days, they clamp whatever tube they can find on the end of the barrel to get more sight radius? Especially the juniors? You know, the kids with eyes far better than you and I?
Can you say "trendy"?
I really wish I was able to return my 1985 vintage 1813, that Karl Kenyon installed a Schneider barrel on in 1986, back to Karl for a new barrel before he retired. I love my Kenyon trigger. It smokes any Anschutz trigger I have used. And I am very fond of my Gates rear sight, and don't care for the Anschutz nearly as much.
If you buy the new gun, and shoot it for 6 months, you will know what I mean. It will look great in the safe, in the spot that had the 1411.
I always remember the best shooters had the ugliest guns....
Also, not to be mean, but pull up some old match bulletins from 28 years ago, and compare the scores to todays matches. This should give you a really good clue...
Sorry for the bluntness, but I think a reality check is sometimes needed.
I am sure you would like a new gun, as I did, because they are, in fact, very nice and pretty. But if you are coming here for confirmation that you need it, in order to justify the new gun purchase, then I would suggest you just shoot the 1411.
Jeff