pellet trap for sub-six hold

negrin · Post by **negrin** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:30 pm

I shoot with center hold.

I never feel comfortable with sub-six hold for years because my sight alignment in that area is very poor. I just don't have enough area for the bottom of my rear sight to fit in. I abandoned sub-six long time ago, and shoot center hold.

It wasn't until last week, it dawn on my thick skull why I had such terrible time using sub-six hold.

1)I had no space below my target paper on my Gelmann trap. 2)The stand that trap sits on is dark brown in color.

The dark area beneath the paper target just blends into the bottom of the rear sight.

I think that is why I did not like sub-six hold long time ago.

So now I am thinking about painting the stand white to alleviate this problem.

Just curious how do you guys using sub-six hold see your alignment clearly below the target? You shoot comfortably because you have a white background or color makes no difference to you?

GaryN · Post by **GaryN** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:06 am

I have a 10"x10" steel box filled w duct seal.
The target is positioned just above center, so I have white/cream color of the target backer to contrast to my front sight.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:17 am

negrin wrote:Just curious how do you guys using sub-six hold see your alignment clearly below the target? You shoot comfortably because you have a white background or color makes no difference to you?

I shoot with what would normally be described as a deep sub-six hold, but the sights are still on the target itself. Sub-six (normally) doesn't refer to being below the target, it's below the black.

Finelld · Post by **Finelld** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:26 am

I am not entirely clear what you mean by area below your rear sight. From the remainder of your post it seem that you are trying to say that there is not enough contrast between your sights and the target.

I shoot 10M air pistol, so I am not as familiar with the sight picture in the other pistol disciplines. My pellet trap is mounted on a green board of similar color to SIUS-ASCOR target systems. That being said, I don't feel I would have any problems with any solid color background providing that they are not fluorescent or day-glow colors.

If your rear sights are set so wide that the gap extends beyond the target area to encompass the background I would suggest that you replace or adjust the rear sight so that it is narrower. Replace the front sight as needed as well in this situation.

I prefer to shoot sub six because I get high contrast encircling the front sight. My sight picture typically has the same amount of white space between the top of the front sight and bottom of the black as is to the sides of the front sight. Using this method I have been able to hold groups entirely within the 9 ring so the 9 ring is not broken.

Many shooters shoot with the front sight just touching the bottom of the black. This has also worked very well. I am of the impression that few shooters will shoot center of the black because there is no substantial contrast between the front sight and the black.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Dave F.

Negrin · Post by **Negrin** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:47 am

I have a 5.5 front sight.

The front sight/ rear sight is pretty wide, 1:1:1

I used this setting to shoot center hold for years.

Now when I use this setting for sub-six, sight/light gap, especially light gap goes in and out of white paper zone below during initial settling of aim, there is not enough white paper space to provide contrast, dark pellet trap frame confuses my initial settling, vertical space gap besides my front sight gets longer and shorter during that initial natural point of aim settling.

I think painting pellet trap face white will give me more space for my sight picture alignment.

Just don't want to get into this habit of shooting this enlarge white background, then find out most competitors do not need this, and end up a shooting disadvantage when I shoot at "their traps".

GaryN · Post by **GaryN** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:07 pm

Use a regulation target. That is the standard that everyone will use, and what you will have at competitions.

For a sub-6 hold, try a slightly narrower rear sight for a 1:2:1 ratio of light:frontsight:light. That way you don't have to hold so far below the bull.

Negrin · Post by **Negrin** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:31 pm

I think everyone who answered the post missed my point.

I painted the face of my trap white. It is the Archerairgun Silent Pellet Trap.

This increase white area out side of my regulation target gave me tremendous confidence in using sub-six hold. I am no longer afraid of my bottom rear sight going out of regulation target white.

Can someone post a picture of the ISSF-sports target trap please, how much "whiteness" is there outside of the regulation target?

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:54 pm

Negrin wrote:Can someone post a picture of the ISSF-sports target trap please, how much "whiteness" is there outside of the regulation target?

Remember that under ISSF rule 6.3.15.2 "10 m ranges must be equipped with electric-mechanical target carriers or changers, or Electronic Scoring Targets."

There won't therefore be a box to hold paper targets. You will either have the face of an electronic target, all of which are painted in a fairly light colour, or a pellet catcher'plate behind the target. If the latter then the last sentance of rule 6.3.17.1 "The background area behind the targets must be a non-reflecting, light even neutral color."

Target boxes, of any colour, where you manually insert an individual 10m paper target are not allowed under ISSF rules.

Negrin · Post by **Negrin** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm

Let's say pellet catcher backboard is used in competition, how much perceived backboard space do you have outside of the target paper?

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:34 pm

Negrin wrote:Let's say pellet catcher backboard is used in competition, how much perceived backboard space do you have outside of the target paper?

Way more than you would need for your purposes. Remember "The background area behind the targets must be a non-reflecting, light even neutral color."

The only difficulty you might have on an ISSF compliant target-carrier range is if the carrier itself is a dark colour, but I've never seen one like that.

People who raise above the target sometimes have a problem if the target light is painted in a dark colour. It doesn't bother me because, at that stage, I am looking at the back of my hand.

Negrin · Post by **Negrin** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:29 pm

Excellent reply.

So painting my target box face white is within the realm of the rule.

Thanks.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:48 am

Perfectly acceptable, although you might want to go to something slightly darker than white (which can sometimes produce glare)

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:15 am

What kind of targets do you use?
Most of the target traps for training at home uses a target with rings from 3 - 10, whilst a real full target for competition has rings from 1 - 10.
The former can give the problems you have described.
Kent

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:33 pm

Reinhamre wrote:Most of the target traps for training at home uses a target with rings from 3 - 10, whilst a real full target for competition has rings from 1 - 10.

I don't know about other countries Kent but that certainly isn't the case in the UK.

I don't think I've ever seen anything other than full ISSF sized 10m targets or the matching traps. The only difference is the strip type of training target but even they use full sized carriers.

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:16 am

I suppose we are more cost minded though :-)
Where it is possible we use this 14 cm targets in front of a full target when training. Full targets is only used for a real competition.

http://www.canaxa.se/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=120
http://www.skyttetjanst.se/product.asp?product=378
And bullet traps:
http://www.canaxa.se/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=396
or
http://www.hobbex.se/p/productmenu,41.5 ... oduct.html
or many other hobby related bullet traps

Steve Swartz as Guest · Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:48 am

Echoing and hopefully expanding on David's comments-

If you intend to shoot in competition at all, you should design your training setup to match a competition set up.

To include the size/color of the target face and frames/boxes.

Use regulation targets, at regulation distances, with regulation frames.

All the way back to your original observation/question: Yes, for a sub-six hold, a portion of the bottom edge of target/top edge of bottom of frame *will* encroach into the bottom of the rear notch of your sight picture.

For my pistols, with my hold, the frame will take up about 25% of the notch for air pistol and about 30% for free pistol.

In competition, the frames are generally a "medium green" color.

This *can* be distracting . . . and that is an important issue. If you are looking at the part of the frame playing peek-a-boo with your sight notch, you are looking a the wrong thing.

While the distraction is potentially htere, it is only a problem if you are AWARE of it. If you don't even realize it's there, everything will be A-OK!

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:35 pm

Steve,
I agree with your comments. I have played with the depth setting of my rear sight notch in order to minimize the distraction, and I keep my focus on the top and upper sides of the front sight.

In the U.S. most club level matches use a variety of target holders (including the infamous B40/4) and I find that makes it very difficult to train.

Fred

Steve Swartz as Guest · Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:48 pm

Fred: it took some effort, and didn't happen overnight, but I think the actual solution is to learn how to focus on the top of the front sight

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