What attributes of rifle appropriate for 3P?

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:35 pm

I have been shooting 10m air rifle (FWB 300s), standing position only, for several months. In the next few months I would like to move outdoors and learn the prone and eventually kneeling positions with a .22.

What are the general characteristics that make a rifle fit or unfit for 3P? I would like to find a higher-end used fwb or anschutz (just based on faith in the brand).

Also, is there a table or chart somewhere that will indicate what features of a rifle are disallowed for various forms of competition? I don't know that I will ever seriously compete, but it could be a small factor in my decision.

If it matters, I find the air rifle a little heavy, but maybe that's good?

pdeal · Post by **pdeal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:07 am

Assuming the rifle will shoot a decent group and has a good trigger and sights I would say stock fit in each position is most important. This is why a relatively modern free rifle is hard to go wrong with. It gives you the ability to tweak as needed.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:21 am

What would be examples of a "free rifle"? Does it refer to a competition "class" where no restrictions on the rifle are made? Can free rifles somehow be made legal for other matches?

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:08 pm

ONLY A STARTING POINT....

Look at a 1907 in any of these stocks .... 1918, 2213, 1913, or maybe for a bit lighter a 1912 stock. Or a 2013 action in a variety of stocks

Get on the Anschutz website and download their rifle catalog (a bit out of date, but it will serve the purpose) ... look in the Free Rifle section ... lots of choices, and that's just one manufacturer.

If you are a smaller shooter, I REALLY like the 1912 as it's only slightly heavier than a precision air rifle

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:54 pm

melchloboo wrote:What would be examples of a "free rifle"? Does it refer to a competition "class" where no restrictions on the rifle are made? Can free rifles somehow be made legal for other matches?

Free Rifle is the name given to the rifle used for Men's prone and 3-P shooting in ISSF Matches. Examples of a Free rifle would be the Anschutz 1913 or 2213, or the FWB 2700 alu. It's called the Free Rifle because there are very few restrictions on stock size and shape. ISSF rules stipulate a maximum weight of 8kg including sights and all accesories (such as the palm rest for standing), and certain maximum dimensions for the butt plate and hook. That's about it. Free Rifles can use spirit levels, a butt hook, a sight extension tube. If you need raiser blocks under the sights for standing and kneeling, you can have as many as you like.

A free rifle is legal for NSRA (British rules) prone matches, and should also should be legal for US-NRA prone matches. A Free rifle would not be legal for NRA Silhouette shooting I believe. A free rifle could be used for some Benchrest competitions, but the fancy 3-P stock would be unneccessary.

Modern free rifles can be minutely adjusted to fit your position; the butt can be lengthened, raised or lowered (more than the 3cm for 10M air rifle), canted, turned in or out. The cheekpiece can be moved in pretty much any direction you like as well (on some older rifles it have only have vertical adjustment). This means a better fit, a more stable and consistent aim, and less fatigue.

As stated in a previous post there is little technical advantage between the major manufacturers; all produce rifles that have been used sucessfully at the highest levels. The differences are in how each fits and balances for you; you might find that one rifle is too heavy, or too light, or just not quite right. If at all possible go to a club/match where you can see or even try one.

Tim S

Exeter UK

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:04 pm

I belong to a club where there is a monthly NRA prone (1800) match. What features of a free rifle should I be careful of that might disqualify the rifle for that match, if I wanted to use it there?

I believe some club members may have some rifles appropriate for 3P that I could try/borrow.

As far as weight, as I say for now I am only familiar with the standing position. I am not sure how I would feel about a light or heavy rifle in other positions. I think the air rifle I have is relatively heavy (fwb300) to mount standing, but I feel like when I am set up correctly and the rifle is steady, everything is perfectly balanced and "weightless", so to speak. Do other positions require more "muscle"?

I am relatively short, 5'7", average build and strength.

The only other issue is that I would lean towards the aluminum or resin stocks, because I am in South Florida. To me wooden stocks, or grips on a pistol, never feel the same day to day depending on humidity and temp.

pdeal · Post by **pdeal** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:41 pm

The other variable is cost. If you are not sure you want to jump in and buy a $2500-$4500 rifle then that puts you into an older rifle and probably a wood stock. The alu stocks have only recently (last 10 years or so) become popular and they tend to be expensive even used. One very nice thing about anschutz and their 54 actioned target rifles is that stocks and barreled actions are all interchangeable. If you want to test the water with an older and lower cost gun at first you can then upgrade the stock later. There is quite an active market for about all the parts so you can mix and match. Even buy a new stock later for your older barreled action.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:59 pm

That sounds like a sensible way to approach it. Are there variations within the 54 action? Are there aftermarket stocks suitable for 3P that would fit it?

Also, when we say interchangeable, is that doable with just a few action screws, or is bedding necessary?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:31 pm

An older Anschutz Match 54 is a good way of getting a 3-p rifle. The basic Match 54 hasn't changed much since it was introduced in 1954, but the bolt and trigger have been improved. As the basic reciever hasn't changed much, stocks can be swapped without the need for rebedding as the action screws are the same size and position for all Match 54 target models.

Regarding weight your FWB 300 will weight about 10lb. A Free Rifle such an Anschutz 1813 will weigh 13-14lb.

If you are comfortable with the weight one Anschutz's Free Rifles (often called Supermatches) would be ideal; models 1413, 1813 or 1913 (depending on age). An older model would have a wooden Free rifle stock. However this could be swapped for a newer or fancier Anschutz aluminum stock, or an after market aluminium stock (Grunig & Elmiger RS, MEC Project or Mk I, System Gemini, and others).

If you wanted a lighter rifle an Anschutz UIT Standard rifle (modles 1407, 1807, or 1907) might be the answer. These are very similar to your FWB 300 in size and stock shape. These could be used for Prone and 3-P matches; you would not be able to customise the fit to the same degree, but this isn't a bad thing when beginning.

Tim S
Exeter UK

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:31 pm

I like the Anschutz 1907-U6 action/barrel pair ... shorter barrel thus lighter. As mentioned, the 54 action will go in a lot of stocks. If you need a longer sight radius, a Medesha tube is a lightweight extension system.

One of my shooters found something from Neal Stepp yesterday.
Give him a holler, he may have something used.
His contact info:

I.S.S.
Neal Stepp
2319 E. Loop 820, N.
Fort Worth, TX 76118-7103
Voice: (817) 595-2090
Fax: (817) 595-2090
E-Mail: i_s_s@sbcglobal.net
Website: www.ISS-InternationalShootersService.com

Senator Vitaman · Post by **Senator Vitaman** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:04 pm

Whatever you buy, don't forget a rail.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:10 pm

What is a rail? I plan on shooting with aperture sights...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:40 pm

It's what you attach your handstop to.

Senator Vitaman guest · Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:44 pm

The feinwerkbau 300 already has a rail and so will most of the match rifles reccomended.

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:56 pm

Ah ok, the rail on the underside of the stock. Was wondering what that was for, I suppose it will become more apparent when I look at other positions besides standing...

Yes, I would look to get a stock that already had one integral. A friend at the club has referred me to something available at a local shop:

"Anchutz 1807 for sale for $700. It's in great shape with real factory, not after market, front and rear sights. Drilled and tapped for a scope too. Barrel looks like new."

Anyone have thoughts? I can probably send a very experienced small bore shooter (or several) to check it out for me if that is a suitable rifle and good price. I believe the 1807 has the 54 action?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:57 am

With sights? Wow that's a great price, if it's really an 1807. The action will have "Match 54" stamped on top of it. All the 14xx, 18xx, 19xx actions are "54".

Writes too fast · Post by **Writes too fast** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:01 am

All actions that are xx07 and higher (xx11,xx13) are match 54 action. The xx03 series (1803, 1903) are a 64 action, which is OK for starting out, but not a match action. The bolts are different, and the 64 has a black steel band toward the front of the bolt, that holds the extractor(s) in place.

Senator Vitaman guest · Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:19 am

All the 14xx, 18xx, 19xx actions are "54".

Does that include the 1416? Those are relatively inexpensive, I thought they used a diffeent one though.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:56 pm

The 1416 is a sporting rifle built on the Match 64 action, it is not suitable for prone or 3-P target shooting.

The 14xx models referred to are the 1407, 1408 (an early incarnation of the 1407), the 1409, 1410, 1411 (prone only stock), and 1413. 18xx and 19xx models are essentially similar, but with an even better trigger, and slightly more adjustable stocks.

An 1807 would be a perfectly good 3-P rifle for a starter. The stock is not too different to a FWB 300, but it could be swapped for a fancier one at a later date.

Tim S
Exeter UK

melchloboo · Post by **melchloboo** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:49 am

Can someone clarify, I understand that there is the 64 and (better) 54 action. But what/how are 1907-U6, 1913-U2, 2007-U6, and 2013-U2?

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What attributes of rifle appropriate for 3P?

What attributes of rifle appropriate for 3P?

Correction to "all" in last post