Scatt info for those that dont have one

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:34 pm

Actually I should correct my post. It wasn't 1 second it was 1/10 second. Other attempts showed 3/10 and 2/10ths early as the best score. Of interest is that the graph dips at the trigger point (0) then goes up again.

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:04 pm

OK - here is an example of one of my traces (the worst example) but it amplifies the problem I have with 90% of my shots.

Green and Blue are default - 1s and o.3s before trigger

Steve Swartz as Guest · Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:11 pm

Based on what has alreadybeen duscussed, and your understanding of what the colored dots are showing, what do *you* think is going on?

I mean, it looks pretty clear to me . . . what do you actually see with your eyes as you break a shot like that, and what does the trace tell you?

Steve

Steve Swartz as Guest · Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Well, o.k. maybe I was being "too clever by half."

Actually you have two distinct issues going on . . .

1. Related to where the shot starts vs. where it lands; and
2. Related to the distance between the dots just before the shot breaks

They are related (common cause) but are typically treated separately.

Steve

(p.s. you have a ~580s hold by the way. I wouldn't worry too much about my "hold" or "wobble area" if I were you!)

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:32 pm

I can tell when I have a 'sweet' shot (about 1 shot in 20) - it just feels right. The rest - well I can't call them yet - they certainly don't go where I thought they did (I've only had the AP in my hand on 8 occassions and shooting an average 60 shots with a .22 on average every second weekend for 7 months - I'm still a novice)

If I were to hazard a guess I would say I was jerking the trigger or squeezing the grip while triggering.

I also note that more often than not it accelerates away whilst I squeeze the trigger

Ed Hall · Post by **Ed Hall** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:37 pm

I really hate to get into this long distance evaluation, especially when it involves highlighting errors, but IMNSHO, you have two distinct detractors:

1) Your pressures are not in line with the bore, and

2) You have poor follow-through

Suggested corrective actions:

1a) Find a grip that allows for a variation in tension to still maintain alignment. IOW, grip with as much of the force as you can being applied to the center of the front and center of the back of the grip, such that if you alternately tighten and release slightly, the sights stay aligned.

1b) Find a trigger finger placement and movement such that it keeps the sights aligned throughout, with a relatively fast (determined) manipulation. A slow actuation will allow you to cover up out of line trigger pressures by adjusting your sights with the wrist. A faster operation will show you when you have reached the optimum in trigger purity.

2) Stay on sight alignment for a definite moment after the shot. An outside observer should not be able to tell when you fired by your actions at that moment. This will move the purple part of the trace into the red hold area.

BTW, I agree with Steve that you have a great hold!

Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Competitive Shooting
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:59 pm

I love critique - good or bad. I'm going to be a novice for some time so I need to rely on others experience so I hope that no-one holds back :)

BUT - I have probably hijacked someone elses thread and should start my own....

david alaways · Post by **david alaways** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:41 pm

Steve Ed anb Hig keep it up I think All scatt users are looking for guidence. My ten ring hold is at 54%, MY FOLLOW THROUGH is slowly getting better, But my trigger isnt perfect . I cant come up with a good answer yet ( I quit drinking a gallon of soda a day and am waiting for any side effects to wear off) Having this thread is helping and I hope it continues........David

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:35 am

One other comment / question, is how long are you holding on for ? If you were to shoot 1 or 2 seconds earlier, you may well get in the region where your hold is centering on. It looks a little bit like you're looking for the perfect sight picture and almost trying to force it into the middle, with a resulting pushing of the shot outside the black. A simple thing to do is time yourself from coming into aim until shot release - it should be about 3-5 secs ish.

As above though, online coaching/problem identification and resolution is extremely difficult.

Rob.

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:25 am

Although online coaching would be great - I understand that it's basically impossible but I'm hoping the pictures prompt ideas, thoughts about what could be going wrong, things to look out for, guidance on solving those potential problems - that sort of thing.

Would posting the .rk files be better than the pictures? Given the Rika and Scatt software are free it means anyone can load and view them! Building a library of good and bad with associated commentary might be useful - Yes/No?

Cheers

David

Steve Swartz as Guest · Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:27 am

1. You are waiting for perfect sight picture before initiating the shot
2. You are disrupting the sight alignment when you apply pressure to the trigger

1. Can't be solved- you have to intuitively come to realize that you have to turn over control of the shot to some other mechanism than "wait until I see a perfect shot, then start to release it"

2. Dry fire against a neutral surface until you can reliably and confidently release the trigger smoothly and rapidly without disturbing the sight alignment OR the smooth settled wobble you have established. Mixed random live/dry fire will also help.

The good news is both problems are probably teh most common errors/bad habits developing shooters (of whatever level) will struggle with.

The bad news they are popular errors for a reason . . .

Steve

[I still say the whole "score if shot released X earlier" thing is probably the most misunderstood aspect of the data provided by Scatt/Rika. There is a huge difference between "triggering earlier" and "holding too long" they are apples and quartzite.)

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:37 pm

Steve Swartz as Guest wrote:
[I still say the whole "score if shot released X earlier" thing is probably the most misunderstood aspect of the data provided by Scatt/Rika. There is a huge difference between "triggering earlier" and "holding too long" they are apples and quartzite.)

Perhaps Steve but it's one of the many tools in the box that can give shooters and coaches some additional information. I would agree though that you can't just say "shoot 2.5 secs earlier" for example.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:26 pm

RobStubbs wrote:I would agree though that you can't just say "shoot 2.5 secs earlier" for example.

Even worse is "look what my score would have been if I'd shot 0.25-0.35 seconds earlier".

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:00 pm

I know that Steve, Ed, David and Rob are right in their assessments - now I just need to overcome the problems :)

I find it interesting that sometimes I come to hold on the target and I observe no perceptable oscillation at all yet other days I seem to be all over the place (yet the Rika shows I'm holding well). I imagine that this may be related to the level of concentration on the aim as opposed to the sight picture.

I'm going to try the TriggerWork setup tonight and keep at it (playing with my grip as well). I have noted that my 'natural' alignment has the forsight off to the right. I might see if I can adjust the actual pistol grip to straighten it up (or maybe I need to rotate my grip on the grip more to the left - right handed shooter)

The one thing I learnt from my archery days - score is meaningless - it's ones form that counts and how that form feels (ie the shot execution). Scoring a 10 for a poorly executed shot is just luck.

Cheers

David

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:12 pm

A question on something Rob mentioned. I am holding for that perfect alignment (first problem) by 'refining' my aim/hold to 'force' it into the target centre.

Now is refining the aim/hold to smaller and smaller oscillations around the centre a bad thing or have I misinterpreted Rob?

Cheers

David

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:31 pm

higginsdj wrote:A question on something Rob mentioned. I am holding for that perfect alignment (first problem) by 'refining' my aim/hold to 'force' it into the target centre.

Now is refining the aim/hold to smaller and smaller oscillations around the centre a bad thing or have I misinterpreted Rob?

Cheers

David

David,
I'm not quite sure I follow you so let me come at it another way. Your hold is a semi random oscillation of movements. You will never acheive a consistent zen-like state of immobility. You will get shot's where it looks like the gun is in a vice, but probably not too often. What you need to do is to accept your hold and shoot within it. If you try and let the shot break when it wants you should find it gets better and better. Trying to force the shot just means you're more likely to force out fliers and get poorer shots more of the time. Work on shooting within your hold but also shoot at the optimum time. Perhaps try and get someone to time you, or count in your head for 20 shots or so and write down the time of every shot. Forget the score element whilst trying to 'learn' a process or new element, it's irrelevant until you've properly learnt the process.

I hope that's understandable and not even more confusing.

Rob.

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:31 pm

Thanks Rob, that makes sense. I did note in last nights sessions I was becoming more aware of where the 'fliers' were going before I looked at the computer screen and in most cases it was because I had 'over corrected' trying to get the aim back into the centre.

tonymcg · Post by **tonymcg** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:01 pm

david alaways wrote:I think All scatt users are looking for guidence.

It was David's original Post and wow has it gone in a great direction.

Posts elsewhere commented on the importance of the L Factor. According to the article by Scott Shaffer the L Factor is the distance the barrel travels in the last second before shot release (and) lowering the L Factor will improve your shooting. On my Scatt the L Factor is displayed after each shot.

Based on Ed Hall's suggestions earlier in this post I have been practicing to improve my hold using a blank target (thanks Ed, I am very happy with the results after daily practice for just a week). At the end of my practice I check my performance against the L factor values and average for the 60 shots AND against the Steadiness in the 10 value (being a blank target Scatt returns a percentage value for a virtual ten ring hold for each shot).
My average L Factor was 142 and base steadiness 51%.

Now I would have assumed there would be a correlation between the two measures and often there is. Yet I can shoot a shot and get a very high percentage steadiness say 96% and yet the L factor might be 220. On another shot the L factor might get as low as 110 and the steadiness is 36%.

Questions:
a) What would be considered good "steadiness in 10" and L factor values to strive for in 10m Air?

b) If the correlation between steadiness and L factor is not as close as I would have thought then what additional specific training might be undertaken to reduce the L factor value?

Any guidance would be gratefully appreciated

Tony

higginsdj · Post by **higginsdj** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:29 pm

I assume this is the 'ideal'!

Steve Swartz as Guest · Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:35 am

What timings do the colors correspond to?

TargetTalk

Scatt info for those that dont have one

scatt

Re: scatt