The National 4-H Shooting Sports committee has officially informed Mike Jochum, the Match Director of a new set of rules in regards to the legal rifles in the Air Rifle Silhouette match ... only 8 weeks prior to the match.
Mike has sent a letter to the State Coordinators ....
http://www.vc4hss.com/Air_Rifle/2009_Re ... Change.pdf
I have sent the National Committee members my views of this. If you send a note, Mike asks that you CC him
Official - 4-H AR Silhouette Rules Change
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Guest
I'm missing something here...
How does this change open the door for high power air rifles? The CMP 3P rules clearly state velocity of 600fps or less. NRA silhouette rules 3.15, 3.16.1, and 3.17 have been around for quite a while...
This has nothing to do with the CMP match at Nationals ... that event is a separate event and is sanctioned, so it must follow the CMP rules.
I must first say that I'm not taking an Air Rifle Team to Nationals this year, so this is no skin off my club's back. Below is my opinion >>>
This is in regards to the NRA silhouette match. Since it is not a sanctionedmatch the rules can and do change ... sometimes deviating quite a bit from the NGB rules ... OK as long as it's announced in a mtch program. Some State co-ordinators have not even seen this set of changes yet, and that means many project leaders have not either.....
Last year the rifles were limited to the same rifles as the CMP match ... low powered 10m >>SPORTER<< airguns .... these rifles are not really suited for the silhouette game unless it is fired indoors .... outdoors, my opinion is that they are really only effective in 50% to 80% distance due to wind. Usually there are more than 2 relays in the silhouette match. The early morning relay has no wind to deal with, but halfway thru relay 2 & relay 3 we've had winds as high as 35mph, gusting to 55 .... fair match for all?
Shooters in the latter relays have no clue what the wind will do to their shot.
This year with 8 weeks to go until the Nationals, the committee has decided to completely change the game & go with NRA rules for Springer (Field target velocity rifles) as well as let the sporter guns in too.
Major rule changes such as this are normally only done in the 2 year cycles and have been announced about 6 months ahead. There are many teams that have been training all year with the sporter guns. Purchasing Field Target springer rifles is no inexpensive proposition and lead times may be long ... allowing no time to setup & learn a gun before the Nationals (again ... in only 8 weeks). This puts the sporter air rifles at a SEVERE disadvantage.
If this change were announced 6 months ago, it would not be such an issue ... this close to the actual match makes me wonder if the committee really knows how much effort is required to setup and learn the characteristics of a silhouette rifle (not just air, but any silhouette gun). This is one of the most demanding shooting events there is, and shooters must not only know the shooting techniques, but the rifle as well.
Note in S. Dakota, the rifles allowed were similar, but also allowed compressed gas field target style rifles. I purchased two Anschutz 8002's for this and when the rules changed last year to disallow rifles with those higher velocities, we just changed those guns back to Precision 10m rifles.
I purposely purchased guns that could be dual purpose. I had no real problem with the year 1 Nebraska rules of sporter only rifles, except for the wind issues.
Rules changing every two years???????? Now every year??????
Welcome to 4-H
I must first say that I'm not taking an Air Rifle Team to Nationals this year, so this is no skin off my club's back. Below is my opinion >>>
This is in regards to the NRA silhouette match. Since it is not a sanctionedmatch the rules can and do change ... sometimes deviating quite a bit from the NGB rules ... OK as long as it's announced in a mtch program. Some State co-ordinators have not even seen this set of changes yet, and that means many project leaders have not either.....
Last year the rifles were limited to the same rifles as the CMP match ... low powered 10m >>SPORTER<< airguns .... these rifles are not really suited for the silhouette game unless it is fired indoors .... outdoors, my opinion is that they are really only effective in 50% to 80% distance due to wind. Usually there are more than 2 relays in the silhouette match. The early morning relay has no wind to deal with, but halfway thru relay 2 & relay 3 we've had winds as high as 35mph, gusting to 55 .... fair match for all?
Shooters in the latter relays have no clue what the wind will do to their shot.
This year with 8 weeks to go until the Nationals, the committee has decided to completely change the game & go with NRA rules for Springer (Field target velocity rifles) as well as let the sporter guns in too.
Major rule changes such as this are normally only done in the 2 year cycles and have been announced about 6 months ahead. There are many teams that have been training all year with the sporter guns. Purchasing Field Target springer rifles is no inexpensive proposition and lead times may be long ... allowing no time to setup & learn a gun before the Nationals (again ... in only 8 weeks). This puts the sporter air rifles at a SEVERE disadvantage.
If this change were announced 6 months ago, it would not be such an issue ... this close to the actual match makes me wonder if the committee really knows how much effort is required to setup and learn the characteristics of a silhouette rifle (not just air, but any silhouette gun). This is one of the most demanding shooting events there is, and shooters must not only know the shooting techniques, but the rifle as well.
Note in S. Dakota, the rifles allowed were similar, but also allowed compressed gas field target style rifles. I purchased two Anschutz 8002's for this and when the rules changed last year to disallow rifles with those higher velocities, we just changed those guns back to Precision 10m rifles.
I purposely purchased guns that could be dual purpose. I had no real problem with the year 1 Nebraska rules of sporter only rifles, except for the wind issues.
Rules changing every two years???????? Now every year??????
Welcome to 4-H
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I didn't notice the old rule (NRA or CMP or 4H?) that the stock on the air rifle be symmetrical. This means that our team can take my Model 52 RWS gun. Scoped and ready to go.
I HOPE I didn't miss that somewhere.
One of ours used his 888 for Silhouette a few years ago. Did great in 3-p and standing, but totally botched Silhouette. We have no where to shoot 45 yard air rifle silhouette.
Mike
Wichita KS
I didn't notice the old rule (NRA or CMP or 4H?) that the stock on the air rifle be symmetrical. This means that our team can take my Model 52 RWS gun. Scoped and ready to go.
I HOPE I didn't miss that somewhere.
One of ours used his 888 for Silhouette a few years ago. Did great in 3-p and standing, but totally botched Silhouette. We have no where to shoot 45 yard air rifle silhouette.
Mike
Wichita KS
I wouldn't say the 10m rifles are not good for shooting AG sil outdoors we do it every month and I just got back from the Southern National match this weekend. We shot them outside in the rain with the wind swirling all around.
That is the really fun part about these guns outside is learning to dope the wind or to be patient to wait for a shot when it dies down. Shooting a rifle designed for 33 feet inside at 135 feet outside is asking a lot of these rifles but they can deliver. The really nice part is they are so easy to spot for yourself since you see the pellets travel and movement. Sure I have had to aim off so far for rams at times that I was aiming where the 1st one was to hit the 2nd but thats shooting.
The wind has blown hard for the airgun portion of this match the past 2 years and good scores are still shot. Wind that was drifting 10.6g Open class rifles doing 875-900 fps an inch or more at rams no less.
The only way I have experienced relays is where everyone shoots one animal and steps back while all other shoot theirs. Sure conditions can vary but it is pretty much the same for all shooters.
Regards the OP topic lol.. I think its chicken feces to make changes to match rules 6 months beforehand and then be slow to get the word out. The changes should be made at least one year prior to give time for people to comply if they need something. Shooting sports are dwindling and we sure don't need people leaving because they just spent big money on a rifle that no longer meets regs. Hell I am about to order a custom 1712 Sil rifle depending on the builder it could be longer than 6 months before I even get it. Then they change the rule before delivery? They already ran a lot of people off with rule changes. Lones Wigger was pissed after he spent big money of 2 custom Smallbore rifles right before a rule change made them useless and decided not to shoot anymore for awhile. Lones Wigger a shooters shooter left the average guy is going to be steamed and say the hell with it.
Bo
That is the really fun part about these guns outside is learning to dope the wind or to be patient to wait for a shot when it dies down. Shooting a rifle designed for 33 feet inside at 135 feet outside is asking a lot of these rifles but they can deliver. The really nice part is they are so easy to spot for yourself since you see the pellets travel and movement. Sure I have had to aim off so far for rams at times that I was aiming where the 1st one was to hit the 2nd but thats shooting.
The wind has blown hard for the airgun portion of this match the past 2 years and good scores are still shot. Wind that was drifting 10.6g Open class rifles doing 875-900 fps an inch or more at rams no less.
The only way I have experienced relays is where everyone shoots one animal and steps back while all other shoot theirs. Sure conditions can vary but it is pretty much the same for all shooters.
Regards the OP topic lol.. I think its chicken feces to make changes to match rules 6 months beforehand and then be slow to get the word out. The changes should be made at least one year prior to give time for people to comply if they need something. Shooting sports are dwindling and we sure don't need people leaving because they just spent big money on a rifle that no longer meets regs. Hell I am about to order a custom 1712 Sil rifle depending on the builder it could be longer than 6 months before I even get it. Then they change the rule before delivery? They already ran a lot of people off with rule changes. Lones Wigger was pissed after he spent big money of 2 custom Smallbore rifles right before a rule change made them useless and decided not to shoot anymore for awhile. Lones Wigger a shooters shooter left the average guy is going to be steamed and say the hell with it.
Bo
Bo ....
Question: What rifle were you shooting?
For the past few years the ONLY rifles that were allowed in 4-H were the 3-P Sporter Air Rifles. While there is certainly enough energy left in a pellet at 45 to knock over a ram. These rifles don't really fall into either the 3a, 3b, or 3c catagory. They are a mixture of the 3a and 3b on the LOW velocity side (500-600fps).
Question: What rifle were you shooting?
For the past few years the ONLY rifles that were allowed in 4-H were the 3-P Sporter Air Rifles. While there is certainly enough energy left in a pellet at 45 to knock over a ram. These rifles don't really fall into either the 3a, 3b, or 3c catagory. They are a mixture of the 3a and 3b on the LOW velocity side (500-600fps).
Just starting our kids on silhouettes. Does this mean my FWB 150, 300S & 300, Walther LGR etc are all allowed in this event now?
I didn't see anything prohibiting them (the 300 might be a little over 11#)??
Are these to be the rules for other 4H competitions now across the country since the national is using them?
Greg, Florida
I didn't see anything prohibiting them (the 300 might be a little over 11#)??
Are these to be the rules for other 4H competitions now across the country since the national is using them?
Greg, Florida