Ideal trigger weight?

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:06 pm

For my first year of being back into shooting I pretty much had the philosophy that the lighter trigger you could use on a gun the better you were going to shoot. Experimentation and analyzing my match scores have proved that this, for me at least, is not the case. I acquired an air pistol a few months ago and the trigger weight is easily adjustable. I started out with it at the standard setting and have been cracking it up and down for the last few weeks to see what effect it had on my sight alignment as I pulled the trigger. This is what I found. A very light trigger where there is no appreciable pull to disturb the sight alignment works well but then all I am using is my hold to make a shot, and my errors seem to occur when I have a shot that breaks before I have the sights actually aligned because at a very light weight the first state of a two stage trigger is indistinguishable from the second stage. The light trigger is not really invloved in the shot at all. At a certain weight the trigger starts causing problems in that it more often than not causes the sights to move as I pull the trigger, but the pull weight is not high enough to actually help me use the trigger to stabilize the sights. As the weight goes up, there is a point where the pressure on the trigger as the shot breaks becomes a stabilizing factor that allows me to use the trigger itself to align the sights. This occurs somewhere between 2.5 and 3 lbs of trigger weight, and the stabilizing effect lasts past 4.0 pounds but goes down hill after that. This is particularly true when I shoot a trigger with roll in it, as even with a heavier trigger weight, my shot group is tighter. I guess my questions for the board is, have any of you experienced the same effect and do you use a heavier trigger than you are allowed by the regulations? Isabel

kanedal · Post by **kanedal** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:35 pm

My experience on this matter is not like yours.
With my AP triggerweight just above the minimum weight i have no problem pulling in the first stage of the pull before the lift and when the sights are (hopefully) aligned i make the shot. Sometimes i am not able to make the shot due to what feels like a very heavy trigger, this is of course only in my mind.
Using the trigger to align the sights dont sound right, i think you may need to make adjustments to the grip so that your sights are aligned when you lift the gun. This should be regardless of your finger on the trigger or off it.
As to my results, they are the same even if the trigger is adjusted below or above the minimum trigger weight.
I think you will discover the same with the right grip and right technique and lots of training.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:30 pm

"Using the trigger to align the sights dont sound right, i think you may need to make adjustments to the grip so that your sights are aligned when you lift the gun. This should be regardless of your finger on the trigger or off it. "

Brian Zins diagrees with you on this point. He may or may not be right although I think his 9 times national championship in Bullseye certainly lends support to his opinion about how to shoot slow fire. He told me he always cranks up the trigger weight on his air pistol because he cannot shoot as well by hold alone. I think he only missed making the Olympic team for Air Pistol a few years back by a couple of points, this is what prompted me to try it. I just wondered if others had experienced the same thing or had experimented at all with a heavier trigger. If you think your sights should be aligned when you pick up the gun by all means work on that. I want my sights aligned when the shot breaks. :-) If you are having trouble making the shot becuase your mind perceives that the trigger is very heavy, we call that "chicken finger" here in the US. I have found that when it happens to me it is usually caused by gripping the gun too tightly which causes a loss of perception in the trigger finger. Isabel.

kanedal · Post by **kanedal** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:16 pm

Isabel1130 wrote:" If you think your sights should be aligned when you pick up the gun by all means work on that. I want my sights aligned when the shot breaks. :-) If you are having trouble making the shot becuase your mind perceives that the trigger is very heavy, we call that "chicken finger" here in the US. I have found that when it happens to me it is usually caused by gripping the gun too tightly which causes a loss of perception in the trigger finger. Isabel.

I guess you knew i ment when the shot is released. The so called chiken finger has for me nothing to do with gripping the gun to tightly, this is a known thing for champion shooters also. I train with 60+ times national champ Pål Hembre and he also have this happen from time to time, of course not as often as i do. He is also a former World Champ in Rapid Fire.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:49 pm

Kanedal, I think you are missing my question here. The question, in a nutshell was do you make your trigger squeeze part of your grip and sight alignment or is it just incidental to your hold? Apparantly you think your hold is all important. Brian Zins says for him it is not. The trigger squeeze is an integral part of his sight alignment and not incidental to it. People who shoot bullseye here in the US have regulations that require a minimum of 3.5 pounds lift on a trigger for a .45. (1.59 kilos) There is a 4 pound minimum(1.82 kilos) for a military pistol match. This means that you must learn to integrate a very strong trigger squeeze into your grip/hold. You cannot use conventional international technique for Bullseye of hold alone and a very light trigger. Therefore my question was " is anyone else increasing the weight of their trigger because they find it leads to a better shot group for them? You obviously have not tried it but attempted to tell me that it must be WRONG because you should be able to have a good sight alignment through hold alone, or am I missing something here? Isabel.

thruxtoncamshaft · Post by **thruxtoncamshaft** » Tue May 19, 2009 4:51 am

Surely there is a difference in technique between olympic air pistol (where the question was posted) and bullseye shooting where 3-4lbs trigger weight is required. In my opinion Kanedal is on the mark, 500 odd grams is much more desireable than 2000 odd grams . If you like the heavy trigger- go for it. Regards Thruxton

RL · Post by RL » Tue May 19, 2009 5:48 am

I agree that the lighter the trigger the better. But however i make prefer mine just a few grams above the limit. It gives me more confidance when it can pass the trigger test easily every single time.
The hard part is the ratio between 1st and 2nd stage. Have never found an ideal ratio.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue May 19, 2009 5:58 am

RL wrote:I agree that the lighter the trigger the better.

That's not always the case but going 3-4 times the minimum permitted weight does seem a bit extreme.

In Air Pistol for example, I'd be extremely surprised if any top shooters are going over 600g. If going heavier was an advantage, other than to try to compensate for a faulty technique in another area, I am sure it would be common.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:27 am

I suppose the difference with Zins would be that he shot bullseye first and therefore adjusted the trigger on his AP to match what he had trained for. I have had high master rifle shooters tell me that they shoot better with a heavier trigger. I am also sure that "knowing" the trigger and the gun is of utmost importance to getting the shots to break in the ten ring. Most shooting stidues seem to show maximum stability of hold 6 to 10 seconds after you level the gun and yet most top AP shooters seem to hold the gun up and release the shot way later than that. Why do you think that is? Just curious. Isabel

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Tue May 19, 2009 9:28 am

Isabel1130 wrote:Most shooting stidues seem to show maximum stability of hold 6 to 10 seconds after you level the gun and yet most top AP shooters seem to hold the gun up and release the shot way later than that. Why do you think that is?

My personal opinion, without any data to back it up, is that today's elite shooters are generally much fitter athletes than they've ever been before.

High fitness levels undoubtedly prolong the period of a steady hold, improve the ability to control adrenaline and increase the ability to maintain focus on the sights.

luftskytter as guest · Tue May 19, 2009 2:13 pm

In competition you wouldn't shoot before you feel you're gonna hit??

Seems there are two culture clashing here......
I shoot AP, and my trigger is adjusted so I feel shure it'll pass the test with flying colors! I don't think the difference between 500 and 510 grams final pressure is important. I've played around with the first / second stage ratio: in competition I "need" about 100 grams increase in weight when I hit the second stage, adding up to the total of approx. 510 grams.
When training I can get away with a smaller difference, but I want a distinct "step" to feel secure that I can feel the second stage without the risk of firing the shot by accident. And I don't want to have to pay conscious attention to this as a problem that draws attention away from my main task. From what I've heard, 100 grams is about normal.

In addition, I don't pull the trigger up to the second stage before the sights are "inside", i.e. acceptably close to center to start the final stage of the shot. If, God forbid, the shot should go off by accident, I then have a fair chance of an acceptable score. In this way it just happens that "accidental discharges" are mostly better than I deserve!

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:05 pm

Isabel,
Yes, I have used Zins' 'steering' technique when shooting the LP50 with its single stage roll trigger. Trigger weight was the normal 530 gm, and I didn't play with heavier settings. I don't think his technique is suited for the usual AP with 2 stage crisp trigger.
Fred

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Wed May 20, 2009 8:38 am

Fred, I think you have adequately answered my question. Through further experimentation I have found that my groups get better almost every time I change the weight of the trigger even when I go lighter as long as I don't reduce it to the point where I can't distinguish between the first and second stage. I think I have finally found the best setting for me and I beleive it is probably in the 400-520 gram range but need to have it weighed to be sure. I am getting an LP-50 and will remember that it is a Zins type gun to train for bullseye and plot my strategy accordingly. :-) Kate

superstring · Post by **superstring** » Wed May 20, 2009 12:28 pm

Fred Mannis wrote:Isabel,
Yes, I have used Zins' 'steering' technique when shooting the LP50 with its single stage roll trigger. Trigger weight was the normal 530 gm, and I didn't play with heavier settings. I don't think his technique is suited for the usual AP with 2 stage crisp trigger.
Fred

Fred, could you point me in the direction of a link describing Brian Zins "steering" technique? Thanks :)

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Wed May 20, 2009 5:44 pm

superstring wrote: Fred, could you point me in the direction of a link describing Brian Zins "steering" technique? Thanks :)

Here is Brian Zins' description of the process:

First of all those who have attended a clinic have heard also heard me
explain this as more of a mental act than a physical act. One cannot really
"steer" the front sight with the trigger. The theory is there to get
shooters to understand that the trigger must start moving prior to obtaining PERFECT sight picture..
What you describe is correct, from the bad shot point of view. One must
start the trigger squeeze before obtaining perfect sight picture. As you
have discovered that once trigger movement starts the sights move as well.
Use that movement to your advantage. If you start on the North pole and take a step what direction are you going?. . . . . . . . .South

If you start squeezing the trigger once you have obtained perfect sight
picture what way are you going? . . . . . . .Away from the center of the
target.

It is used as a tool to get people to understand that they need to squeeze
trigger earlier than most do.

There has been a lot of discussion of this on the Bullseye-L site. A quick search turned up this
http://groups.google.com/group/Bullseye ... a8684f1d6e

superstring · Post by **superstring** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:47 am

Thanks for that, Fred.

2650 Plus · Post by **2650 Plus** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:35 pm

Personal experience as follows. The heavier recoil required a heavier trigger pull weight. As recoil became lighter I was able to control the trigger with a lighter setting. The trigger pull never got down to the minimum allowed by match rules on any of my pistols as My goal was to exceed national records, which would have made it mandatory to meet the rules particular to the match . And , furthermore I was not willing to be known as a cheater. Not a single top competitor in the bullseye game that I shot against was ever identified as a cheat. Some of the less skillful shooters would get caught cheating , but most out grew this tendancy as they increased their level of performance. It was only in the international type matches that winning was so important that evasion of the rules became more commonplace. T will ask you to take my word for the as many of these shooters were long time friends and there is no way I would ever mention their names in this context. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Appletree · Post by **Appletree** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:40 pm

past i use short 1st stage light and 2nd stage heavy more than 500 gram based on issf rules. My shooting score max 567 and my average on 554 +

than i modift my trigger. I use long 1st stage and put most of trigger weight on this tage and put the rest on 2nd stage trigger. All total 500 + so i have very light 2nd trigger and not so heavy on 1st compensated with long 1st stage trigger. I use my trigger as part of aim beside my firm hold. I must sure my trigger pull stright to rear. I use my trigger blade to drive my sight. I do this after my front sight is on area aim below target (6 hold) than i made adjustment or with my trigger finger position on 1st travel. then if i see my front sight steady on 6 then subconsious shoot fired because 2nd trigger is light but not so light (for prevent accidental shoot). On my average 60 shoot i only shoot 8 -4 times. My best is only shoot 8 1 times, and my hogher score rise to 575 (two 8) and average on 565 Up basen on this setting. yesterday i made modification on my grip hope this will reduce my griping inconsistency.

My native lang is not english so i am sorry for amiss spelling