Alternative to 1911 for Accurate .45
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
Alternative to 1911 for Accurate .45
Shooting every type of handgun that is accessible from my own Baikal IZH-35, Smith 629, Daisy 747, IZH-46 AP... to all the "trade-offs" my Godfather and I do at the range. Anyway, the stench of elitism to enlist a $2500 accurized 1911 just to shoot centerfire bullseye makes me wonder where this aspect of the sport will be in the future. I find it hard to believe that there is not a well designed .45 pistol that can shoot 3.5" groups at 50 yards without being at the mercy of a bullseye pistol gunsmith to modify an already pricy gun. I know you guys that have already paid the "entry fee" might be thinking "too bad", but with forces at work to undermine shooting sports must we make the entry fee so steep?
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solomon grundy
If there were a cheap match grade semi in 45, people would use it. No one's deliberately trying to drive up the costs to compete in BE.
And you can get into a viable 45 for a lot less than $2500 - and a used one for much less.
But the cheapest route is probably to use a revolver. A Model 25, or 625, can hold its own with the right load and bullet.
And you can get into a viable 45 for a lot less than $2500 - and a used one for much less.
But the cheapest route is probably to use a revolver. A Model 25, or 625, can hold its own with the right load and bullet.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Govt Model:
I have to agree in the main but also repsectfully disagree on the broader question. Yes, out of the box M1911s that shoot 3"groups (5 shot) at 50 yards do exist.
1. They are the exception. Find a gunshop that will allow you to test several guns and return them until you find one that is "match ready."
2. 3" groups at 50 yards is not good enough for two reasons: a) for the new shooter, the inability to accurately call your shots will interfere with your ability to train effectively and develop your skills; b) for the experienced shooter the inability to reliably deliver Xs will cost you points in a match. So just saying (using the convenient excuse) "the gun shoots better than I do" is very flawed thinking.
3. 2" 10 shot groups at 50 yards- EVERY SINGLE TIME- is (IMNSHO) the *minimum* standard if what you want to do is learn how to shoot.
My advice: Stick to a good .22 while you save your money. Most match directors will let you shoot the .22 phase only. And there are a wide variety of good match-grade .22s that will certainly shoot 2" groups all day long at 50 yards (try a Ruger Mark II with a drop in Volquartsen trigger).
Expecting flames on this one; but in my opinion buying a substandard gun "just to get your feet wet" is a bad strategy. I still maintain that shooting a crappy gun will lead to the devlopment of bad habits that will become very hard to break once you do get serious about it.
I learned this the hard way shooting rifle. I "traded up" until I got my Anschutz . . . and spent twice as much money as I would have if I just sucked it up and bought the right equipment the first time.
"The wrong gun is too expensive at any price."
Steve
I have to agree in the main but also repsectfully disagree on the broader question. Yes, out of the box M1911s that shoot 3"groups (5 shot) at 50 yards do exist.
1. They are the exception. Find a gunshop that will allow you to test several guns and return them until you find one that is "match ready."
2. 3" groups at 50 yards is not good enough for two reasons: a) for the new shooter, the inability to accurately call your shots will interfere with your ability to train effectively and develop your skills; b) for the experienced shooter the inability to reliably deliver Xs will cost you points in a match. So just saying (using the convenient excuse) "the gun shoots better than I do" is very flawed thinking.
3. 2" 10 shot groups at 50 yards- EVERY SINGLE TIME- is (IMNSHO) the *minimum* standard if what you want to do is learn how to shoot.
My advice: Stick to a good .22 while you save your money. Most match directors will let you shoot the .22 phase only. And there are a wide variety of good match-grade .22s that will certainly shoot 2" groups all day long at 50 yards (try a Ruger Mark II with a drop in Volquartsen trigger).
Expecting flames on this one; but in my opinion buying a substandard gun "just to get your feet wet" is a bad strategy. I still maintain that shooting a crappy gun will lead to the devlopment of bad habits that will become very hard to break once you do get serious about it.
I learned this the hard way shooting rifle. I "traded up" until I got my Anschutz . . . and spent twice as much money as I would have if I just sucked it up and bought the right equipment the first time.
"The wrong gun is too expensive at any price."
Steve
Steves scenario is right for the shooter intending to seek championship status or at least one very committed to the game. But it does not fit the exploring shooter. Within reason, by learning the abilities of the equipment, and then doing the best one can with it, seems a good approach for some shooters. The bounds of reasonable are where the argument lies. All people, all budgets, all situations, are different.
Accuracy in a 1911 is not nearly as important as accuracy in a .22 rifle. A 1911 that will group 3" at 50 yards will get you to the 2600 club. Much more important is a reliable gun which has a very good trigger and good repeatable sights. That being said, I've never heard of a shooter who scrimped on a 1911 rise quickly to the top.
There is no reason that anyone who shops around, should have to spend $2,500 to get a very good quality 1911. Very good used, accurized 1911's can be found for less than $1,500. Buying a base Springfield Milspec and having it accurized shouldn't cost $2,000. Clark Custom still advertises their bullseye pistols complete for $1,695.
There is no reason that anyone who shops around, should have to spend $2,500 to get a very good quality 1911. Very good used, accurized 1911's can be found for less than $1,500. Buying a base Springfield Milspec and having it accurized shouldn't cost $2,000. Clark Custom still advertises their bullseye pistols complete for $1,695.
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
There is a guy in my office that shoots a Kimber with a trigger job for Bullseye. He does pretty well at the indoor matches where the max distance is 25 yards. However, his all time high score at a 2700 by about a hundred and fifty points occured at a match where he borrowed a gun. It was a much higher quality gun. I watched the same thing happen at Camp Perry. The woman next to me was shooting a Colt Gold Cup. The gun malfunctioned and she had to borrow a gun from her coach. Her groups immediately tightened up and her scores zoomed up about ten points per target. The fact that you can do so much better even with an unfamiliar gun picked up on the spot tells me that the gun is a huge factor in how well you will do in Bullseye and how you will feel about it. As usual I find myself totally agreeing with Steve Schwartz. If you watch and wait and get on the Bullseye L list some really nice guns can be pciked up used for well under 1500 dollars. Yes Steve, I am in acqusition too and I always heard it as "You can have it good, cheap or fast: Pick any two" A guy I knew at Ft Sill had that posted above his desk. Additional point, guns hold their value much better than that new pickup you just drove off the lot. :-) I view them as a secure place to park some of my investments thereby diversifying my portfolio. The guns have held their value much better this year than my 401 K and they will keep pace with inflation. :-) Isabel
Re: Alternative to 1911 for Accurate .45
Hi Lammy,
You hit the nail on the head. The 1911 is a terrible platform for a target gun. Jut about everything that makes it a good tactical weapon is a detriment to accuracy of function for target shooting (boy am I going to take a lot of flak for that one). Not that you can't make one shoot well, It just takes a lot of effort.
That being said, at least it's so popular there will always be parts and services available for the 1911. If you believe everything you read, you'll probably come to the conclusion that it's just as hard and expensive to get a MG2 running as a 1911 bullseye gun, so maybe the 1911 isn't so bad after all.
Don't get me wrong, I do like 1911's, I just also wish that Ruger made a Mark III .45 for 5 or 6 hundred dollars that would shoot 2" groups.
Steve.
P.S. That's why I like air pistol, you can use anything. Oh wait, that was before I was told that shooting anything other than a $2000 air pistol is a complete waste of time and energy. Maybe I'll go buy a boat.....
You hit the nail on the head. The 1911 is a terrible platform for a target gun. Jut about everything that makes it a good tactical weapon is a detriment to accuracy of function for target shooting (boy am I going to take a lot of flak for that one). Not that you can't make one shoot well, It just takes a lot of effort.
That being said, at least it's so popular there will always be parts and services available for the 1911. If you believe everything you read, you'll probably come to the conclusion that it's just as hard and expensive to get a MG2 running as a 1911 bullseye gun, so maybe the 1911 isn't so bad after all.
Don't get me wrong, I do like 1911's, I just also wish that Ruger made a Mark III .45 for 5 or 6 hundred dollars that would shoot 2" groups.
Steve.
P.S. That's why I like air pistol, you can use anything. Oh wait, that was before I was told that shooting anything other than a $2000 air pistol is a complete waste of time and energy. Maybe I'll go buy a boat.....
Lammy1000 wrote:Shooting every type of handgun that is accessible from my own Baikal IZH-35, Smith 629, Daisy 747, IZH-46 AP... to all the "trade-offs" my Godfather and I do at the range. Anyway, the stench of elitism to enlist a $2500 accurized 1911 just to shoot centerfire bullseye makes me wonder where this aspect of the sport will be in the future. I find it hard to believe that there is not a well designed .45 pistol that can shoot 3.5" groups at 50 yards without being at the mercy of a bullseye pistol gunsmith to modify an already pricy gun. I know you guys that have already paid the "entry fee" might be thinking "too bad", but with forces at work to undermine shooting sports must we make the entry fee so steep?
As is the case with most things in life, the answer is not the same for all people because in reality the true question differs from person to person. When it comes to finding a gun to shoot the CF and .45 of a 2700 with there are a bunch of questions that aren't all that different from the one used to originally select a .22.
A. What are your goals (Ranges from becoming National Champ to have a fun excuse to shoot)
B. What are your constraints (These can be time, money, range access, other hobbies/comittments)
C. What are your resources available (Shooting companions, This board and anything else you can think of.)
Once you get a handle on this, the answer becomes more obvious. Find someone locally who can guide you through the process. At any given time most of us know of people who are looking for their next gun and we know what they are looking for. When we see one for sale it doesn't take long to connect the seller to the buyer.
Oh and as for the "Steep Entry Fee" I guess that again is a relative question for each to answer. A survey of rule changes since the beginning show that most if not all changes affecting the gun requirements have allowed for a more diverse selection of legal options. Saying that you need a $2500 gun as a minimum to compete is about as accurate as going to the Porsche dealership and determining that a new $45,000 Boxster is your only alternative to riding the bus. Can you pay $2500 for a .45? I guess so but of the 40 or 50 shooters I know personally I am almost positive that even the most expensive gun in the group was nowhere near that with the majority in the $1000-$1500 range.
A. What are your goals (Ranges from becoming National Champ to have a fun excuse to shoot)
B. What are your constraints (These can be time, money, range access, other hobbies/comittments)
C. What are your resources available (Shooting companions, This board and anything else you can think of.)
Once you get a handle on this, the answer becomes more obvious. Find someone locally who can guide you through the process. At any given time most of us know of people who are looking for their next gun and we know what they are looking for. When we see one for sale it doesn't take long to connect the seller to the buyer.
Oh and as for the "Steep Entry Fee" I guess that again is a relative question for each to answer. A survey of rule changes since the beginning show that most if not all changes affecting the gun requirements have allowed for a more diverse selection of legal options. Saying that you need a $2500 gun as a minimum to compete is about as accurate as going to the Porsche dealership and determining that a new $45,000 Boxster is your only alternative to riding the bus. Can you pay $2500 for a .45? I guess so but of the 40 or 50 shooters I know personally I am almost positive that even the most expensive gun in the group was nowhere near that with the majority in the $1000-$1500 range.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I found a used 1911 with the full Bomar Rib built by George Cannady (who built mine) for $800. I also found a Colt 1911, builder unknown, with a 1 inch ultradot on a rib. I didn't talk to the guy at the time, so I don't KNOW it was a bullseye gun, but then almost no one else uses ultradots. It was $750.00.
Personally, I think the $2500 is really high. Les Baer's NEW hardball guns are only $1700, and that's a new one.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
I found a used 1911 with the full Bomar Rib built by George Cannady (who built mine) for $800. I also found a Colt 1911, builder unknown, with a 1 inch ultradot on a rib. I didn't talk to the guy at the time, so I don't KNOW it was a bullseye gun, but then almost no one else uses ultradots. It was $750.00.
Personally, I think the $2500 is really high. Les Baer's NEW hardball guns are only $1700, and that's a new one.
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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Guest
Mike's mentioning of the Les Baer 1911 Hardball is worth repeating.
With a recoil spring change (or maybe not- try it and see how it functions with wadcutters) this pistol can be used for CF, .45, and Distinguished. If you want to get really cute you can drop the mainspring housing between matches and insert a pre-bent sear spring to adjust trigger pull. Combine it with a Marvel Conversion and with one pistol you're covered for everything.
Alternatively, if you don't need the expensive "extras" including checkered front strap (use skateboard tape instead), and so forth, you should be able to have a stock 1911 totally accurized with new barrel/bushing, adjustable sights, etc. for around $500. Again, I would use a CMP legal platform so you can shoot the distinguished maches. They now allow filled or unfilled slide holes for scope mounts so you've got this flexibility also.
Unless it's a real deal, I would shy away from a dedicated wadcutter as my first Bullseye CF pistol. Any decent Hardball pistol - with possible minor tweaking - can be used as a base for everything. You can't get much better than the Les Baer Hardball pistol for what - a couple hundred more than a Kimber!!! In the long run the Les Baer Hardball might be the cheapest way to go!
With a recoil spring change (or maybe not- try it and see how it functions with wadcutters) this pistol can be used for CF, .45, and Distinguished. If you want to get really cute you can drop the mainspring housing between matches and insert a pre-bent sear spring to adjust trigger pull. Combine it with a Marvel Conversion and with one pistol you're covered for everything.
Alternatively, if you don't need the expensive "extras" including checkered front strap (use skateboard tape instead), and so forth, you should be able to have a stock 1911 totally accurized with new barrel/bushing, adjustable sights, etc. for around $500. Again, I would use a CMP legal platform so you can shoot the distinguished maches. They now allow filled or unfilled slide holes for scope mounts so you've got this flexibility also.
Unless it's a real deal, I would shy away from a dedicated wadcutter as my first Bullseye CF pistol. Any decent Hardball pistol - with possible minor tweaking - can be used as a base for everything. You can't get much better than the Les Baer Hardball pistol for what - a couple hundred more than a Kimber!!! In the long run the Les Baer Hardball might be the cheapest way to go!
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Angry Inch
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:08 pm
This thread strayed off the topic
I was looking for a discussion of an accurate .45 ACP that was not a 1911. It seems the 1911 crowd can not seem to talk about anything else. What about the SigP220 or the CZ 97?
Don't get me wrong. I am impressed with the fact that the 1911 is 100 years old and still a viable option. But even the base line models are over priced. $700 for a low end Springfield and the sights are black on black blades. Not a single white dot anywhere. Not everybody feels the need to screw with their gun. My Browning and Beretta were perfectly acceptable out of the box. Nice sites and decent trigger and the same price as a low end 1911 from a reputable name company.
I thing the Ruger SR1911 is a good start in the right direction. The Remmington R1 looks like a good option as well.
Just my thoughts on the topic.
SK
Don't get me wrong. I am impressed with the fact that the 1911 is 100 years old and still a viable option. But even the base line models are over priced. $700 for a low end Springfield and the sights are black on black blades. Not a single white dot anywhere. Not everybody feels the need to screw with their gun. My Browning and Beretta were perfectly acceptable out of the box. Nice sites and decent trigger and the same price as a low end 1911 from a reputable name company.
I thing the Ruger SR1911 is a good start in the right direction. The Remmington R1 looks like a good option as well.
Just my thoughts on the topic.
SK
I agree with Govtmodel. I tested two Kimbers for a friend and both shot under three inches 10 shot at 50 yards. In fact both were closer to two inches. I would rather have a Les Baer for the few hundred more but it is not necessary. I have tested many pistols in the past that would be lucky to make 8 inches at 50 but I think CNC machinery is changing the arena.
I made the mistake of getting a new series 70 Colt Gold Cup when I first started shooting bullseye. When I made sharpshooter, I could tell that many shots were not on call at 50 yards. I then saved up and bought a custom 1911. It made a huge difference. Like Greg Derr says, a good used BE pistol would be an excellent option. You should be able to still pick up an excellent condition accurized bullseye pistol for several hundred less than 2 grand. I've seen a few for sale for a little over a grand.
The Range Officer from Springfield is a great starter gun, it will shoot 1 hole at 25yds and hold under 4'' at 50yds, its frame slide fit is as tight as any les baer or rock river, it will also feed SWC lead bullits but not with the factory mags, you need some of the domed follower mags from megar . My son bought this gun and it really impressed me, it comes with good adjustable sights but you can use a grip mount scope rail for a dot or instal a clark mount for cheap. When you feel you need a little more accuracy then you can have a kart barrel and bushing fitted to it for about 300.00 and this gun will shoot right up there with any custom wad gun. The gun sells new for 749.00 go on youtube and search range officer and see them in action.
One way to approach it would be to go with just a solid firearm and upgrade as the opportunity presents. There are plenty of reasonable price, good shooting 1911s out there. Or you can go with something entirely different like the Sig P220 match. I'm not sure what sort of performance for price you consider acceptable.
I have an STI Spartan 1911 that is solid right from the box. A little trigger work and it shoots better than I can get out of it, for way less than $1k.
I have an STI Spartan 1911 that is solid right from the box. A little trigger work and it shoots better than I can get out of it, for way less than $1k.
Re: Alternative to 1911 for Accurate .45
In my limited expereince there were two guns that would provide that accuracy right out of the box the S&W 945PC and the Pardini GT in 45ACP with the 6 inch barrel. The Pardini was a beautiful gun with a superb trigger much like the Pardini SP. The only minus was that it preferred to eject the fired cases on top of ones head. I purchased it from Don Nygord many yeras ago and after not being able to cure the problem decided to sell it rather than put up with then hot brass.Lammy1000 wrote:Shooting every type of handgun that is accessible from my own Baikal IZH-35, Smith 629, Daisy 747, IZH-46 AP... to all the "trade-offs" my Godfather and I do at the range. Anyway, the stench of elitism to enlist a $2500 accurized 1911 just to shoot centerfire bullseye makes me wonder where this aspect of the sport will be in the future. I find it hard to believe that there is not a well designed .45 pistol that can shoot 3.5" groups at 50 yards without being at the mercy of a bullseye pistol gunsmith to modify an already pricy gun. I know you guys that have already paid the "entry fee" might be thinking "too bad", but with forces at work to undermine shooting sports must we make the entry fee so steep?
The S&W945PC was equally accurate has an exceptionally good factory trigger and handles everything from 185 gr. LSWC's to 230 gr. FMJ's without issue. The big minus of the 945 is that it is not on a 1911 frame and therefore the wide assortment of 1911 accessoriesw are not useable. It is my current 45 bullseye gun.
Tony
Last edited by TonyT on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.