My Natural Point of Aim feels, well uh... natural. With my IZH46. I can close my eyes, raise the pistol and when eyes open, voila! The front sight is lined up well with the rear.
Whenever I hold a stock LP10 I've noticed with that grip (even when adjusting the barrel as far right as possible) the barrel hangs off to the left.
My initial reaction is, what's wrong with my hand/wrist! Am I that messed up? Is there a grip out there that can compensate for this?
Then I stepped back and started to think about this. Is Natural Point of Aim Nature or Nurture? It has taken 6 months to 'figure out' my Natural Point of Aim and get it to where it is with my Izzy.
I'm starting to believe that if I dump my IZH and 100 trigger pulls per night for 100 trigger pulls per night on an LP10, muscle memory and training simply adjusts to the new grip. A 'new' Natural Point of Aim would be developed.
If that's true, your Natural Point of Aim is actually a by-product of your training. No?
Oz
How natural is your NPA?
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Interesting question..
I have always taken NPA to be where you body aligns itself naturely without looking at the target in your bodys most natural center of stops for all your muscle groups. I shoot a bit of pistol and was taught the sideways stand using the bringing up of the sights eyes closed and then adjusting the feet till your lifting and holding center of the target blind.
Seems like your taking it or adding to this by how your sight picture is with regards to the sights themselves. This I would bet is just the nature of the beast in changing what you know. As you say muscle memory is key and every pistol is going to feel different to your body so what worked with X might need to be retrained for the new Y model.
Now days I shoot most Rimfire and Airgun silhouettes and some Air rifle Field Target all offhand. Using the rifle however I will bring up the rifle and settle into my NPA then while looking through the scope adjust my feet to bring me in line, look down and away then bring it back up and see where I am.
Those fine motor skills and reflexes are key to shooting and something you just have to acquire over time. It all transfers to other guns but the new gun may have to be learned in it's own way.
If I had the Steyr the Izzy would be a closet queen lol. Adjust it as best you can and practice soon enough you will tweak those muscles to have a consistant hold you like same as your 46M.
Good luck,
Bo
Seems like your taking it or adding to this by how your sight picture is with regards to the sights themselves. This I would bet is just the nature of the beast in changing what you know. As you say muscle memory is key and every pistol is going to feel different to your body so what worked with X might need to be retrained for the new Y model.
Now days I shoot most Rimfire and Airgun silhouettes and some Air rifle Field Target all offhand. Using the rifle however I will bring up the rifle and settle into my NPA then while looking through the scope adjust my feet to bring me in line, look down and away then bring it back up and see where I am.
Those fine motor skills and reflexes are key to shooting and something you just have to acquire over time. It all transfers to other guns but the new gun may have to be learned in it's own way.
If I had the Steyr the Izzy would be a closet queen lol. Adjust it as best you can and practice soon enough you will tweak those muscles to have a consistant hold you like same as your 46M.
Good luck,
Bo
Well, sort of...
My impression is that in rifle shooting with the gear, clothes etc. Natural Point of aim determined in large measure by that gear in a good body position. You try to create bone on bone support. If done correctly, you will be on target.
For pistol shooters it is more a matter of muscule memory. Certainly we see some shooters with their feet in alignment with line to the target. Others at various angles.
Consistency is critical to consistent performance. Line up the same and the muscles will develop and learn this.
To your point about the grips and holding the pistol, I think you are partially correct. Just consider whether you are holding your wrist at a "normal" or "natural" or perhaps the term might be "comfortable position". I am not sure that any position with that weight is exactly normal. But if you are twisting excessively, fatigue will be a problem. The pistol may want to turn back to the left forever!
Most of us customize our grips for this reason. One friend, a reasonable but not top shooter, likes to say that you can not practise our way passed a poorly fit grip...
BE patient, try the new pistol for awhile, then experiment with modifications with clay or moleskin then more permanent modifications
My impression is that in rifle shooting with the gear, clothes etc. Natural Point of aim determined in large measure by that gear in a good body position. You try to create bone on bone support. If done correctly, you will be on target.
For pistol shooters it is more a matter of muscule memory. Certainly we see some shooters with their feet in alignment with line to the target. Others at various angles.
Consistency is critical to consistent performance. Line up the same and the muscles will develop and learn this.
To your point about the grips and holding the pistol, I think you are partially correct. Just consider whether you are holding your wrist at a "normal" or "natural" or perhaps the term might be "comfortable position". I am not sure that any position with that weight is exactly normal. But if you are twisting excessively, fatigue will be a problem. The pistol may want to turn back to the left forever!
Most of us customize our grips for this reason. One friend, a reasonable but not top shooter, likes to say that you can not practise our way passed a poorly fit grip...
BE patient, try the new pistol for awhile, then experiment with modifications with clay or moleskin then more permanent modifications
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2650 Plus
Natural Point Of Aim
Reference the above comment refering to muscle memory as the criteria for NPA. Try this sometime. Do twenty pushups and check for NPA by allowing your muscles to come to a ballance of tension with your pistol raised to the firing position. This is now your natural point of aim. Now, streach your shooting arm as far as you can reach around to the back. Do this for at least two minutes. With your eyes closed again raise your pistol to firing position and move the arm back and forth until you again achieve a relaxed ballance in muscle tensions, open your eyes and check where you are now pionting. Is this now your NPA ? I am sugesting that your NPA is simular to money in that it is fungable, and that for the pistol shooter warm up exercises that cause the muscles to reach a proper relaxed state at the position where you are not only pointing into your selected aiming area but also have perfectly alligned sights should be your goal. Check some of Steve Swartes hints about NPA changes as muscles tire during a long competition. Good Shootiing Bill Horton
To get the barrel to swing back to the right add some filler to the grip where it meets the heel of your palm. Try it with Blu-Tack or plasticine (do they still make that stuff?) and you will be able to judge how much fill is needed.
Any owner of a IZH-35 will tell you that the factory grip is a one size fits every orang-utang. Generally the barrel points out to the right and so you have to Dremel some of the grip off until it aligns. Often people take too much off and then have to start adding.
In your case, because the pistol points left, you have the luxury of adding fill layer by layer until you get it right.
Any owner of a IZH-35 will tell you that the factory grip is a one size fits every orang-utang. Generally the barrel points out to the right and so you have to Dremel some of the grip off until it aligns. Often people take too much off and then have to start adding.
In your case, because the pistol points left, you have the luxury of adding fill layer by layer until you get it right.
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cloudswimmer
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm
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Lss_
My pistol front sight points really left too. On the feinwerkbau 103, i have to max out the grip and rotate my grip so my wrist is straight and the sights align. Cant imagine how i can handle recoil in other pistol disciplines.
Anyway i do bend back at the waist too so that i can even out the pressure on my soles. Having size 6.5 feet isnt helpful. (No production shooting shoes fit me.)
Anyway i do bend back at the waist too so that i can even out the pressure on my soles. Having size 6.5 feet isnt helpful. (No production shooting shoes fit me.)
Oz,
I'm not sure that I would consider the orientation of the pistol in your grip as part of natural point of aim. Some pistols have a grip you can adjust to orient the pistol to you. If not, you'll have to either modify the grip or adjust how you hold it. Same problem I've been having with my Morini. My IZH seems more forgiving in this respect.
You can build up the grip in back to shift it around. If you just spend time training you will probably get somewhat adjusted to the direction, but I think working on the grip to point it where you want it will be more beneficial in the end.
Kevin Walker
GySgt
USMCR Shooting Team
I'm not sure that I would consider the orientation of the pistol in your grip as part of natural point of aim. Some pistols have a grip you can adjust to orient the pistol to you. If not, you'll have to either modify the grip or adjust how you hold it. Same problem I've been having with my Morini. My IZH seems more forgiving in this respect.
You can build up the grip in back to shift it around. If you just spend time training you will probably get somewhat adjusted to the direction, but I think working on the grip to point it where you want it will be more beneficial in the end.
Kevin Walker
GySgt
USMCR Shooting Team
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2650 Plus
NPA
Heres another two cents worth. Gunny sergeant Walker in his post just above is absolutely correct in seperating NPA from sight allignment. NPA is the relationship of yhe body position to the targer aiming area. Grip relates to sight allignment. If the problem is sight allignment, work on the grip. Modify it or change pistols until natural sight allignment occurs. I would never advise anyone to attempt to shoot competition type scores while fighting either an NPA problem or a grip that does not allow for perfect sight allignment when the pistol is raised to the firing position. Good Shooting Bill Horton