I have a 162 EI short and really loved the trigger when I first started shooting it. Now, after about 1100 pellets, I find myself freezing when I get to the second stage and trying to time the shot. My problem is the second stage is very crisp and I need some roll so I don't know when it will fire. I noticed a dip on a few shots and even put one in the six ring! I didn't have that problem before, but there it is.
I have my free pistol set with a single stage rolling trigger and I like it.
Last night I increased the weight on the first stage to match the second and that may solve my problem. I backed off the second stage spring and am considering unhooking that spring if I feel the trigger breaking point.
I did try to set some roll in the second and was unable to do that. If anyone knows how to put roll in the second stage, I would be grateful if you passed on the secret.
All comments greatly appreciated!
Ben
I don't like my Morini 2 stage trigger!
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
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- Location: Berwick, PA
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Luke:
- Short answer: No, you can't make a roll trigger out of the morini electric.
- I agree that a technique issue (by your own description) seems to be the real problem
- If your trigger control is inconsistent, I'm not sure a roll trigger will really help.
What is your understanding of the "ideal shot process" to deliver a ten? How would *you* describe it to someone who knows absolutely nothing about shooting?
Do you think the release of the shot must be random? Or unpredictable?
Steve
- Short answer: No, you can't make a roll trigger out of the morini electric.
- I agree that a technique issue (by your own description) seems to be the real problem
- If your trigger control is inconsistent, I'm not sure a roll trigger will really help.
What is your understanding of the "ideal shot process" to deliver a ten? How would *you* describe it to someone who knows absolutely nothing about shooting?
Do you think the release of the shot must be random? Or unpredictable?
Steve
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
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Steve Swartz as Guest
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Guest
Ben,
It appears we have a consensus. Your course of action is:
1. Amputate trigger finger and replace it with a Morini-friendly transplant.
2. If that fails, amputate brain and replace it with a Morini-friendly transplant.
3. If that fails, public suicide with an apology to everybody who KNOWS that the Morini electric trigger is perfect for every shooter.
I'm sorry I can't offer any serious advice except to (heresy warning) sell the Morini and get something with a trigger you like better. Maybe a Pardini? And to disregard prescriptions that fail to take your subjective reactions into account.
It reminds me of my motorhead friends who insist I'm doing something wrong because Recaro seats hurt my back.
It appears we have a consensus. Your course of action is:
1. Amputate trigger finger and replace it with a Morini-friendly transplant.
2. If that fails, amputate brain and replace it with a Morini-friendly transplant.
3. If that fails, public suicide with an apology to everybody who KNOWS that the Morini electric trigger is perfect for every shooter.
I'm sorry I can't offer any serious advice except to (heresy warning) sell the Morini and get something with a trigger you like better. Maybe a Pardini? And to disregard prescriptions that fail to take your subjective reactions into account.
It reminds me of my motorhead friends who insist I'm doing something wrong because Recaro seats hurt my back.
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
I shoot a Matchguns MG1E by Morini, so I guess it's a pretty similar thing.
I like the trigger, and have put some effort into adjusting and thinking.
This message is somewhat long, because it's about mind over matter!
First of all, the electric trigger on my pistol doesn't "break".
The 2nd stage spring is just that: a spring, nothing more.
It has no other function but putting a "step" into the felt resistance, and may be removed without disturbing any other function.
I consider it to be a reference tellling me that I'm very close to the firing point.
When the elctrical circuit is switched on, the "click" you feel when the shot is released is caused by the electric solenoid and has nothing to do with the mechanical action of the trigger. I've found that it's important to know this. The pulling of the trigger and the firing of the shot take place in two entirely separate "worlds": one is mechanical, the other is electrical.
If you pull the trigger with the electricity switched off, you will feel nothing at the point where the shot should have been released.
Therefore I've slackened the endstop so my trigger has some overtravel.
When I squeeze the trigger into the second stage, resistance increases slowly until I reach the endstop. During this movement nothing happens that needs to be stopped. But during this short travel, the current is switched on and the gun fires: you feel the action of the gun, but you can't feel how you made that happen!
So I'm free to adjust the 2nd stage however I want to. I've made it heavy enough so I can feel it without worrying whether I've reached the 2nd stage, but no more than that. So there's very little resistance to fight to release the shot. And I know that this is only caused by spring resistance, nothing else, and If the trigger feels "crisp", I know that the "crisp thing" is the solenoid moving very fast when the current is switched on.
BTW, I've adjusted mine so that the 2nd stage adds appr. 100 grammes to make a total pull weight of about 510 grammes. During training I find this might be lowered. In competition I'm glad it isn't lower......
I believe the secret of the electric trigger is to have these thoughts firmly embedded in the back of your mind. So there you have it: mind over matter, assisted by electricity!
An afterthought: it would be very easy to make a wired remote control for these guns, letting a coach or your non-shooting hand do the trigger work. This might provide some valuable lessons!
I like the trigger, and have put some effort into adjusting and thinking.
This message is somewhat long, because it's about mind over matter!
First of all, the electric trigger on my pistol doesn't "break".
The 2nd stage spring is just that: a spring, nothing more.
It has no other function but putting a "step" into the felt resistance, and may be removed without disturbing any other function.
I consider it to be a reference tellling me that I'm very close to the firing point.
When the elctrical circuit is switched on, the "click" you feel when the shot is released is caused by the electric solenoid and has nothing to do with the mechanical action of the trigger. I've found that it's important to know this. The pulling of the trigger and the firing of the shot take place in two entirely separate "worlds": one is mechanical, the other is electrical.
If you pull the trigger with the electricity switched off, you will feel nothing at the point where the shot should have been released.
Therefore I've slackened the endstop so my trigger has some overtravel.
When I squeeze the trigger into the second stage, resistance increases slowly until I reach the endstop. During this movement nothing happens that needs to be stopped. But during this short travel, the current is switched on and the gun fires: you feel the action of the gun, but you can't feel how you made that happen!
So I'm free to adjust the 2nd stage however I want to. I've made it heavy enough so I can feel it without worrying whether I've reached the 2nd stage, but no more than that. So there's very little resistance to fight to release the shot. And I know that this is only caused by spring resistance, nothing else, and If the trigger feels "crisp", I know that the "crisp thing" is the solenoid moving very fast when the current is switched on.
BTW, I've adjusted mine so that the 2nd stage adds appr. 100 grammes to make a total pull weight of about 510 grammes. During training I find this might be lowered. In competition I'm glad it isn't lower......
I believe the secret of the electric trigger is to have these thoughts firmly embedded in the back of your mind. So there you have it: mind over matter, assisted by electricity!
An afterthought: it would be very easy to make a wired remote control for these guns, letting a coach or your non-shooting hand do the trigger work. This might provide some valuable lessons!
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
Re: I don't like my Morini 2 stage trigger!
Have you considered setting the trigger up as a single stage trigger? There's nothing to freeze on when you do that.Freepistol wrote:I have a 162 EI short and really loved the trigger when I first started shooting it. Now, after about 1100 pellets, I find myself freezing when I get to the second stage and trying to time the shot.
Stan
I think a slight change to the shot process could help here. A lot of shooters take up the first stage way too early, and sit there waiting for the sights to settle down. Both physically and mentally it becomes a freeze point. If you're at all tentative (like when you're nervous in a match) the tendency is to hold too long. Optimal physical and mental focus has gone from the sights by this time, and it often results in a not-so-controlled release.
By leaving the whole trigger process until last, AFTER settling in the aiming area, AFTER going to the sight picture, you can make the trigger a single non-stop action. Load and load and load and load until the shot breaks, then load some more in follow through.
I prefer a little roll to the second stage, but that in itself will not help if you get into the habit of stop-starting on the trigger.
By leaving the whole trigger process until last, AFTER settling in the aiming area, AFTER going to the sight picture, you can make the trigger a single non-stop action. Load and load and load and load until the shot breaks, then load some more in follow through.
I prefer a little roll to the second stage, but that in itself will not help if you get into the habit of stop-starting on the trigger.
Warren
Warren,
I found your comment to be VERY interesting. I always take up the 1st stage quite early - while lowering the sights onto the target. And then waiting for the right moment to complete the shot which at times does seem like a long time. I think that I will modify my approach based upon your comment.
I found your comment to be VERY interesting. I always take up the 1st stage quite early - while lowering the sights onto the target. And then waiting for the right moment to complete the shot which at times does seem like a long time. I think that I will modify my approach based upon your comment.
Hi Ben,
Unfortunately both the Morini and the Steyr do not allow the adjustment of the second stage travel. The Pardini's have an adjustment for "hook engagement" which is essentially the 2nd stage travel, but I've never tried a long travel on the 2nd stage.
Everyone seems to set up the 2 stage triggers with a very light second stage. A heavy second stage might alleviate the feeling to hesitate at the last moment. According to the manual the Morini 1st stage can go as low as 50 grams, I'd try setting the 1st stage to the minimum and setting the 2nd stage for your 500 gm release. It can't hurt to experiment a little.
Steve.
Unfortunately both the Morini and the Steyr do not allow the adjustment of the second stage travel. The Pardini's have an adjustment for "hook engagement" which is essentially the 2nd stage travel, but I've never tried a long travel on the 2nd stage.
Everyone seems to set up the 2 stage triggers with a very light second stage. A heavy second stage might alleviate the feeling to hesitate at the last moment. According to the manual the Morini 1st stage can go as low as 50 grams, I'd try setting the 1st stage to the minimum and setting the 2nd stage for your 500 gm release. It can't hurt to experiment a little.
Steve.
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toznerd
Like a few others, I initiate trigger pressure early. I take up the first stage as the sights cross the top of the target. I begin to take up the second stage as I first begin to settle in the sight picture. I have found that I tend to have my optimal area of hold very early in the cycle, and since practicing getting the earliest release that I can get away with, my scores have finally risen to a level to which I am satisfied. I think the key is developing a level of trust that your hold is better than you think, and releasing based on alignment and smooth releases into stable follow-throughs. Let your sub-conscious calculate the picture- the same sub-conscious that allows you to drive down the center of a lane of roadway without calculating numerical distance. Again, as others have suggested- this trust can be developed by habitualizing the mechanical elements of release and alignment through massive amounts of studied and deliberate dry-firing on a blank wall or target card.
Interestingly, I am practicing with a non-Toz free pistol with a two stage trigger, set to about 25 first stage grams and 45 second stage grams for a total of 70 grams. I'm going to shoot a match tomorrow to see how it feels.
deep tens,
toznerd
Interestingly, I am practicing with a non-Toz free pistol with a two stage trigger, set to about 25 first stage grams and 45 second stage grams for a total of 70 grams. I'm going to shoot a match tomorrow to see how it feels.
deep tens,
toznerd
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
trigger
That gun has my grip on it, right? Thats all you really need !! Like owning the new corvette and whinning about the gas peddle ! I had chicken finger in one match and was really surprised by it. If you dont have one I will loan you my chop saw! Sorry I didnt really have anything helpful to post but the other guys covered it all already. That grip with my lucky sweat rubbed into it was worth at least 10 points on your average. David.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Apologies
It seems I stepped on some Morini toes when I suggested changing the trigger. I guess I should have explained my intentions a little better. I'm sorry!
I am a free pistol shooter, not an AP shooter. I shoot the AP because it is cheaper, quieter, and doesn’t put any smoke in my house. At a match, my goal is to shoot a good free pistol score.
My free pistol is a Hammerli 162 and I adjusted the trigger to have a lot of movement so I can begin trigger movement early. With my FP set up this way, I can start the trigger squeeze when I am getting into the area of aim and the round fires without any indication that I am getting close to firing. With the Morini, the second stage is heavier and my finger tells me “we are about to let one fly.” I don’t want that indicator. As “guest” said, chicken finger was present.
I don’t want my AP trigger so different from my free pistol that it would cause me to use different triggering techniques. That’s what I felt was happening. I have been dry firing the free pistol with occasional live fire, but I’ve only been live firing the air and it wasn’t going to work out. I don’t want to learn bad technique. That is why I told you guys that I shot a 6—bad technique.
So my question was supposed to be “how, or can I change the Morini trigger?”
I did get my question answered by Luftskytter and Tenex {Steve}. Thanks!
I have some more adjustment to do; however, I think it will work fine.
And yes, David, your sweaty grip is good for 10 points.
Thanks
Ben
I am a free pistol shooter, not an AP shooter. I shoot the AP because it is cheaper, quieter, and doesn’t put any smoke in my house. At a match, my goal is to shoot a good free pistol score.
My free pistol is a Hammerli 162 and I adjusted the trigger to have a lot of movement so I can begin trigger movement early. With my FP set up this way, I can start the trigger squeeze when I am getting into the area of aim and the round fires without any indication that I am getting close to firing. With the Morini, the second stage is heavier and my finger tells me “we are about to let one fly.” I don’t want that indicator. As “guest” said, chicken finger was present.
I don’t want my AP trigger so different from my free pistol that it would cause me to use different triggering techniques. That’s what I felt was happening. I have been dry firing the free pistol with occasional live fire, but I’ve only been live firing the air and it wasn’t going to work out. I don’t want to learn bad technique. That is why I told you guys that I shot a 6—bad technique.
So my question was supposed to be “how, or can I change the Morini trigger?”
I did get my question answered by Luftskytter and Tenex {Steve}. Thanks!
I have some more adjustment to do; however, I think it will work fine.
And yes, David, your sweaty grip is good for 10 points.
Thanks
Ben
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Steve Swartz as Guest
1. Put the lightest set of springs you can on the gun (1st and 2d stage)
2. Reduce the first stage as light as possible
3. Reduce the first stage travel to be quite short
4. Reduce the 2d stage weight to your FP weight
Voila
Now you have a single stage trigger with a bit of slack (take-up) where the first stage would normall be
[p.s. turn off the electronics and dry fire- you *will* definitely feel a slight bump or click when the switch unloads off the grounding pad)
2. Reduce the first stage as light as possible
3. Reduce the first stage travel to be quite short
4. Reduce the 2d stage weight to your FP weight
Voila
Now you have a single stage trigger with a bit of slack (take-up) where the first stage would normall be
[p.s. turn off the electronics and dry fire- you *will* definitely feel a slight bump or click when the switch unloads off the grounding pad)