Folks,
I shoot sub six. Right in the middle of the white zone beneath the bull. Over time, if I don't pay attention, I start to crowd the bull and shoot high. Now one might say that it would be best to just change the sights and go with it if this is most natural for me, however, this sight picture close to the bull does not produce my best scores.
Apparently, as soon as I get too close to the black, I become too aware of it. I then start asking myself if I am too far down, and my subconscious obliges me by sending a high eight, or worse. What I get is a triangular pattern with the point in the low ten spreading out wider as the shots move through the nine to the high eight and seven. The pattern is spreading, because for some reason, the closer I am to the bull I also get worse on the horizontal axis.
I do my best shooting when I am just sitting in the white, concentrating only on the alignment, far enough from the black that it is not an issue. When I succeed in this I get a nice round group in the nine ring, centered on the ten.
My program now is to work on the trigger on a blank target, and then to produce that same good black sights on white taarget squeeze with the hold described above.
I have also taken to heart what our friend FP5-something-or-other said about having a definite switch-on go point where you know you decide are ready to shoot and you start to execute. For me it has to do with setting my arm and grip and balance and sight picture and everything else, while resting in the black, not above, but right in the bull. If it is not right I abort. If it is right, I mentally give myself the green light, and go down into my zone. I am trying to program myself to automatically start my trigger sequence whien I see the white around my sights. In other words, first comes the decision, and then the change from a black background (where I am relaxed and fiddling with fine adjustments) to white (shoot now), is the pavlovian moment.
Best Regards,
Gordon
Moving from 6'oclock to sub 6 aim point
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Bobs my baker
hold
edster99 , I dont feel the pressure, I call my shots as 10s but they are 9.9 or 9.8. I have only shoot 5 matches against good shooters, my last one a 568.(not a PR) That was after a month away from shooting. My biggest problem (I THINK) is I know I can win any match..... Maybe alittle jitters! I cant feel them !.... Lack of experience!!!! (WHAT ELSE) I DONT KNOW!!!......Im going to go shoot 30 rounds and post it (Alittle pressure)...wish me luck.
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
Bobs my baker
Guest
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: hold
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I shot just a hair below bull . My high score 594 (at home) right now I average 582 (at home ) I took a few months off but am now shooting again, which brings me to my question. When I am in full swing (shooting every day) I average 586 , if I switched to sub 6 what is the likelyhood my scores would get better ?
My God Bob, you sure know how to make a guy feel inadequate.....I average a little less than your scores....quite a little in fact.
That must be the problem dude....by the way, you would be a hit giving motivational shooting talks to less confident shooters.Bobs my baker
Guest
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: hold
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My biggest problem (I THINK) is I know I can win any match.....
Good luck in the quest for the elusive 600 Bob......my money is on you .
Re: hold
Yeah good luck! post how you shoot at the nationals, as well... thats where it counts.Bobs my baker wrote:edster99 , I dont feel the pressure, I call my shots as 10s but they are 9.9 or 9.8. I have only shoot 5 matches against good shooters, my last one a 568.(not a PR) That was after a month away from shooting. My biggest problem (I THINK) is I know I can win any match..... Maybe alittle jitters! I cant feel them !.... Lack of experience!!!! (WHAT ELSE) I DONT KNOW!!!......Im going to go shoot 30 rounds and post it (Alittle pressure)...wish me luck.
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Bobs my baker
hold
My wife stopped me from finishing last night. (she was armed with a frying pan) warmup 10 shots (93) 10 more shots (97) that was it.... My PR was at the Olympic Trials , I did ok for the stress but not what I shot at home.... I have not out trained anyone,( meaning my training habits suck) My scores at home come from a talent on loan by God.... The pains in my hands and arm tell me I cant do this much longer.(Getting old ) Thats why I asked my question , I dont have much time to be the best I can be. Will Sub 6 help ? For now Im not going to try it. ( if I was 40 I would ) .... Edster when I shot at nationals this year I will inform you , When I win I will take anyone who shows up out to dinner! NOW!!! I want no undo pressure on me so I have to say I was just kidding.........
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
Bobs my baker
Guest
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: hold
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My wife stopped me from finishing last night. (she was armed with a frying pan) warmup 10 shots (93) 10 more shots (97) that was it.... My PR was at the Olympic Trials , I did ok for the stress but not what I shot at home.... I have not out trained anyone,( meaning my training habits suck) My scores at home come from a talent on loan by God.... The pains in my hands and arm tell me I cant do this much longer.(Getting old ) Thats why I asked my question , I dont have much time to be the best I can be. Will Sub 6 help ? For now Im not going to try it. ( if I was 40 I would ) .... Edster when I shot at nationals this year I will inform you , When I win I will take anyone who shows up out to dinner! NOW!!! I want no undo pressure on me so I have to say I was just kidding.........
Bobs my Baker.................you're quite a character!
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
"There's never enough time to do the job right, but there's always time to do the job over."
Not to be a contrarian nag, but have you considered: If your time is limited (long term and short term), isn't it acually *more* important to approach your training from a "doing it right the first time" perspective?"
I mean, rather than a "I'm doing great so I don't need to change" perspective?
I'm just saying . . . my assumption (which you might not share obviously) is that there are indeed "better" ways to approach how you develop your technique.
I'm not saying sub six is better or worse- just that there are better and worse ways to figure out whether or not it is better for you . . .
Not to be a contrarian nag, but have you considered: If your time is limited (long term and short term), isn't it acually *more* important to approach your training from a "doing it right the first time" perspective?"
I mean, rather than a "I'm doing great so I don't need to change" perspective?
I'm just saying . . . my assumption (which you might not share obviously) is that there are indeed "better" ways to approach how you develop your technique.
I'm not saying sub six is better or worse- just that there are better and worse ways to figure out whether or not it is better for you . . .
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Bobs my baker
hold
Steve ! I actually agree with you. Now if a ever shoot a WR. during a match I might change my mind.....Lets say sub six is a proven fact better way to shoot. You are now me Steve! What would you do? ( I AM LISTENING ) my mind is not set in stone! Remember you are shooting at nationals this year and in the back of your mind you dont really believe in sub six ( a little mental game going on ).... Opinions on Scatt if you have any ( from anybody) would be nice .... Im not Bob ! hes my baker!
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
I'm just a club shooter, but I've been through similar things.
After shooting for about 1/2 year, I got into some unorthodox ideas about aiming and had to decide whether to stay with traditional sub-six, or try something new. My deciding factors:
I'm still pretty new as an air pistol shooter, so habits are not yet deeply established. Do it now, or don't do it!
If you learn something and make it a habit, you will NEVER GET RID OF IT! That's the awful truth: you may suppress bad habits, but they will be a part of you forever. And under stress, they'll pop up, even if you haven't noticed them for years. I've learned this the hard way in other sports.
So make sure you never establish such things. Sloppy training is worse than doing nothing...... Don't teach yourself bad shooting habits.
I'm not gonna be a champion anyway (too old) so if something suits me, it's OK even if maybe it will pose a barrier to reaching top international performance level. For a better shot this may be different. I may be glad if I can shoot consistent nines. Someone else may "need" tens....
And if you shoot sub six, remember good shot delivery and sigh alignment is more important than where you are aiming. If you aim between the 4 an 5 ring, halving the distance between the black zone and your sights gives at least a good solid 9 or maybe a 10, and that's an easily avoidable error for an ambitious shooter. Sub six is all about reducing stress and avoiding optical disturbances.
After shooting for about 1/2 year, I got into some unorthodox ideas about aiming and had to decide whether to stay with traditional sub-six, or try something new. My deciding factors:
I'm still pretty new as an air pistol shooter, so habits are not yet deeply established. Do it now, or don't do it!
If you learn something and make it a habit, you will NEVER GET RID OF IT! That's the awful truth: you may suppress bad habits, but they will be a part of you forever. And under stress, they'll pop up, even if you haven't noticed them for years. I've learned this the hard way in other sports.
So make sure you never establish such things. Sloppy training is worse than doing nothing...... Don't teach yourself bad shooting habits.
I'm not gonna be a champion anyway (too old) so if something suits me, it's OK even if maybe it will pose a barrier to reaching top international performance level. For a better shot this may be different. I may be glad if I can shoot consistent nines. Someone else may "need" tens....
And if you shoot sub six, remember good shot delivery and sigh alignment is more important than where you are aiming. If you aim between the 4 an 5 ring, halving the distance between the black zone and your sights gives at least a good solid 9 or maybe a 10, and that's an easily avoidable error for an ambitious shooter. Sub six is all about reducing stress and avoiding optical disturbances.
If I may come into this discussion..
No one has mentioned that the width of the front sight can be important.
There is a huge difference if you have a 3 mm or 5 mm front sight.
If you, as I do, use a 5 mm there is no question about it, sub 6 is faster to find and time is of the essence even in slow fire. You will only be tired if you have to "monitor" where it is if holding just under the black with a 3 mm front sight!
Kent
(65 this year)
No one has mentioned that the width of the front sight can be important.
There is a huge difference if you have a 3 mm or 5 mm front sight.
If you, as I do, use a 5 mm there is no question about it, sub 6 is faster to find and time is of the essence even in slow fire. You will only be tired if you have to "monitor" where it is if holding just under the black with a 3 mm front sight!
Kent
(65 this year)
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Steve Swartz as Guest
"And if you shoot sub six, remember good shot delivery and sigh alignment is more important than where you are aiming."
No, actually, it's the other way around.
Good shot delivery (trigger control) and sight alignment being important no matter what sight picture you choose . . . trigger control and sight alignment are not "more important because you use sub-6;" they are the reason *why* area aiming in the sub-6 hold offers advantages.
I shot 6-oclock for years ("that's the way we were taught").
I stubbornly resisted all evidence suggesting otherwise.
I finally got serious, did my homework. I tried various technique elements in controlled settings under instrumented experimentation. Finally, I collected enough data and experience to realize that in order to find out "What works best for you" (a common, generally accepted piece of wisdom), a person really had to look at things objectively and understand the actual reasons why certain things workd or didn't.
Center hold may be best for you. Holding on the top of the target frome may be best for you. Holding hte gun sideways may be best for you.
How do you find out?
I'm suggesting that asking a bunch of people you don't relly know (and remaining anonymous to do so) probably isn't a great method for developing your technique. Better than nothing? Maybe.
Steve
No, actually, it's the other way around.
Good shot delivery (trigger control) and sight alignment being important no matter what sight picture you choose . . . trigger control and sight alignment are not "more important because you use sub-6;" they are the reason *why* area aiming in the sub-6 hold offers advantages.
I shot 6-oclock for years ("that's the way we were taught").
I stubbornly resisted all evidence suggesting otherwise.
I finally got serious, did my homework. I tried various technique elements in controlled settings under instrumented experimentation. Finally, I collected enough data and experience to realize that in order to find out "What works best for you" (a common, generally accepted piece of wisdom), a person really had to look at things objectively and understand the actual reasons why certain things workd or didn't.
Center hold may be best for you. Holding on the top of the target frome may be best for you. Holding hte gun sideways may be best for you.
How do you find out?
I'm suggesting that asking a bunch of people you don't relly know (and remaining anonymous to do so) probably isn't a great method for developing your technique. Better than nothing? Maybe.
Steve
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
No real disagreement here i guess:
Shot delivery:
doing funny things when firing will always cause more trouble than being slightly off aim. So it's important to feel secure and just concentrate on good followthrough while you let the shot happen.
Sight width:
this is another story, and quite simply put, they don't sell the sights you need! Have you tried 7 milllimeter? That's about right as far as I'm concerned: front sight width = target black area diameter to give you easy sideways reference, and rear sight notch adjusted accordingly. But you'll probably have to make your own :-)
Shot delivery:
doing funny things when firing will always cause more trouble than being slightly off aim. So it's important to feel secure and just concentrate on good followthrough while you let the shot happen.
Sight width:
this is another story, and quite simply put, they don't sell the sights you need! Have you tried 7 milllimeter? That's about right as far as I'm concerned: front sight width = target black area diameter to give you easy sideways reference, and rear sight notch adjusted accordingly. But you'll probably have to make your own :-)
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Bobs my baker
hold
A bunch of guys ! Thats your opinion of Targettalk, I guess maybe I should have just stuck with the advice I recieved from Zurek and Demerest. I found that the advice from the top shooters isnt always the same. So I decided to try (a bunch of guys I really dont know ) (at least 4 of them have called me since I became Bobs my Baker) I even asked Steves own opinion (on mental training I beleive he thinks he knows more than anyone else and maybe he does) which I was ready to accept. I was after an opinion that was based on my shooting abilities not my personality. I posted my scores for that and only that reason ! I became Bobs my Baker because I posted my scores and didnt want Attention given to me . My question (Should I attempt to switch from centerhold to sub six if I already shoot constant 580s in practice ? ) I feel needed a few of my stats so that ( a bunch of guys I really dont know) could give me their HONEST OPINIONS. If that (bunch of guys I really dont know) dont mind I would still be glad to have your opinions and give you mine ! If thats ok with you ! For now Im going to go practice my centerhold ( because Ive been motavated to prove how will it works). And for you (BUNCH OF GUYS I DONT REALLY KNOW) I look forward to your HONEST and POLITE opinions.............IM not Bob hes my Baker.
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
OK, Bobs cstomer:
Cool to hear you shoot center, and that's another reason to think BIG frontsight. There's a coach that advocates shooting center with a sight WIDER than the black area of the target. The purpose is to actually see the sight sticking out and contrasted against the white background.
I tried this for a while, and think it's worth trying, and would have stuck with it if I hadn't found an alternative.
But as stated previously, I'm new to this game despite old age, so I've still got a chance of establishing the ideal technique before the traditional "mistakes" get planted in my brain!
Therefore I've found a totally different solution, which is very traditional and also very radical: I'm using a bead frontsight and aim center.
Not the one that granpa used, but a big one! I prefer to call it a "ball" since it's big enough to fill most of the black. And it fills most of the rearsight notch as well. I keep the top of my rear sight at target center so it cuts both the black circles in two.
So what gives? I had to make this sight myself, no big deal after making a number of wide front posts. This sight was very easy for me to become accustomed to. I believe it is pretty accurate: when I do other things right, it produces tens with a good feeling of certainty. My whole sighting process is very much guided not by contrast and edges, but by symmetry. Humans are very good at judging symmetry.
I've shot this way for about half a year now, and feel no reason to quit.
It's so different from the other holds that old habits are very much "blocked" by a totally different sight picture. This also means that there's very little comflict if I try using sub-six for a change, they belong in "different worlds".
So that's it:
Don't be afraid of trying something different. It's the only way of making progress, and it just might make you win.
Cool to hear you shoot center, and that's another reason to think BIG frontsight. There's a coach that advocates shooting center with a sight WIDER than the black area of the target. The purpose is to actually see the sight sticking out and contrasted against the white background.
I tried this for a while, and think it's worth trying, and would have stuck with it if I hadn't found an alternative.
But as stated previously, I'm new to this game despite old age, so I've still got a chance of establishing the ideal technique before the traditional "mistakes" get planted in my brain!
Therefore I've found a totally different solution, which is very traditional and also very radical: I'm using a bead frontsight and aim center.
Not the one that granpa used, but a big one! I prefer to call it a "ball" since it's big enough to fill most of the black. And it fills most of the rearsight notch as well. I keep the top of my rear sight at target center so it cuts both the black circles in two.
So what gives? I had to make this sight myself, no big deal after making a number of wide front posts. This sight was very easy for me to become accustomed to. I believe it is pretty accurate: when I do other things right, it produces tens with a good feeling of certainty. My whole sighting process is very much guided not by contrast and edges, but by symmetry. Humans are very good at judging symmetry.
I've shot this way for about half a year now, and feel no reason to quit.
It's so different from the other holds that old habits are very much "blocked" by a totally different sight picture. This also means that there's very little comflict if I try using sub-six for a change, they belong in "different worlds".
So that's it:
Don't be afraid of trying something different. It's the only way of making progress, and it just might make you win.
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Bobs,
To answer your question directly: I don`t think technique should be your training focus. If your mechanics are working, go with it.
I am saying this only because of your great results.
One of the winning Russian ladies gymnastics coaches explained his method this way: First I teach the girls how to perform. Then I teach them how to compete. Then I teach them how to win.
It seems to me that a guy who is shooting elite scores, and who is on the backslope of the life curve, should be paying attention to steps two and three: competing and winning.
It is ok for wannabe shooters like me to fixate on technique, because that is thoe only way to build the scores I need. For you it is completely different. Of course you can experiment like anybody else, but you don't want to get sidetracked rebuilding your whole platform in your basement.
At this stage, I think you should figure out how to take what you have got and train to get the very most bang for a buck in actual competition. David L. made some great points on this subject in the ammo thread. Saying that he was not training to shoot, or even training to shoot matches. He was training to compete. That I think, is the ticket for you.
Congratulations. Good luck. And if God has loaned you something that works, get out and use it.
Best Regards,
Gordon
To answer your question directly: I don`t think technique should be your training focus. If your mechanics are working, go with it.
I am saying this only because of your great results.
One of the winning Russian ladies gymnastics coaches explained his method this way: First I teach the girls how to perform. Then I teach them how to compete. Then I teach them how to win.
It seems to me that a guy who is shooting elite scores, and who is on the backslope of the life curve, should be paying attention to steps two and three: competing and winning.
It is ok for wannabe shooters like me to fixate on technique, because that is thoe only way to build the scores I need. For you it is completely different. Of course you can experiment like anybody else, but you don't want to get sidetracked rebuilding your whole platform in your basement.
At this stage, I think you should figure out how to take what you have got and train to get the very most bang for a buck in actual competition. David L. made some great points on this subject in the ammo thread. Saying that he was not training to shoot, or even training to shoot matches. He was training to compete. That I think, is the ticket for you.
Congratulations. Good luck. And if God has loaned you something that works, get out and use it.
Best Regards,
Gordon
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Steve Swartz as Guest
O.K. Bob; if you didn't want my advice, you shouldn't have asked.
My advice was:
Don't just mess around randomly with your technique. Don't just do something because somebody else says it works for them.
Instead
Focus on what the important outcomes and issues are (there are tradeoffs with almost every technique choice). In order to do that, you have to learn what those important "basics" or "fundamentals" are. Then figure out how to measure/observe them.
Then, when you are "trying different things o see if they will work" you will know what you are looking for . . . and whether what you are trying is "better" or "worse" than what you were already doing.
That's my advice; perhaps a little more directly and simply put.
Good luck.
My advice was:
Don't just mess around randomly with your technique. Don't just do something because somebody else says it works for them.
Instead
Focus on what the important outcomes and issues are (there are tradeoffs with almost every technique choice). In order to do that, you have to learn what those important "basics" or "fundamentals" are. Then figure out how to measure/observe them.
Then, when you are "trying different things o see if they will work" you will know what you are looking for . . . and whether what you are trying is "better" or "worse" than what you were already doing.
That's my advice; perhaps a little more directly and simply put.
Good luck.
Ed
I was a 6-oclock shooter for MANY years, as that is how I learned.
When I switched to sub-6, it was a PAINFUL switch. I had to UNLEARN many years of learning, experience and subconsious conditioning.
It took many months of hard work...LOTS of practice. If I did not pay attention, I would unconsiously switch back to a 6-oclock hold, and the shots would be high...of course.
For some people changes are easy, for others it takes a LOT of work.
If you want to do it, go for it and give it the effort it will take.
Don't quit because it isn't going well, as like me it may take a while to reprogram your brain.
Now I am comfortable shooting sub-6.
But it is still all too easy for me to accidentally shoot a 6-oclock hold.
I will give you an analogy.
I'm right handed and use my adding machine right handed.
But I decided for reasons that I also wanted to use the adding machine lefthanded. Well it took about 6 months until I could do it reliably. And the first month was so bad that it wasn't funny, my speed went down to maybe 20% with lots of errors. Now I can use either right or left hand as I feel the need.
Keep at it and practice, and in due time your body will adjust.
As was mentioned by others, now that I shoot sub-6 hold, I find that the width of the front sight in the sight picture becomes more important than when I shot 6-oclock.
gud luk
I was a 6-oclock shooter for MANY years, as that is how I learned.
When I switched to sub-6, it was a PAINFUL switch. I had to UNLEARN many years of learning, experience and subconsious conditioning.
It took many months of hard work...LOTS of practice. If I did not pay attention, I would unconsiously switch back to a 6-oclock hold, and the shots would be high...of course.
For some people changes are easy, for others it takes a LOT of work.
If you want to do it, go for it and give it the effort it will take.
Don't quit because it isn't going well, as like me it may take a while to reprogram your brain.
Now I am comfortable shooting sub-6.
But it is still all too easy for me to accidentally shoot a 6-oclock hold.
I will give you an analogy.
I'm right handed and use my adding machine right handed.
But I decided for reasons that I also wanted to use the adding machine lefthanded. Well it took about 6 months until I could do it reliably. And the first month was so bad that it wasn't funny, my speed went down to maybe 20% with lots of errors. Now I can use either right or left hand as I feel the need.
Keep at it and practice, and in due time your body will adjust.
As was mentioned by others, now that I shoot sub-6 hold, I find that the width of the front sight in the sight picture becomes more important than when I shot 6-oclock.
gud luk
white on black
Cant remember where I saw it but on another thread someone mentioned concentrating on the white not the black parts of the sight picture. I have tried this over the last week or so - it seems to really make a difference in my consistency. Another week or two and a new PB, I suspect.
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Bobs my baker
hold
Looks to me like shooting is like politics ! Liberals ,Democrats ,Republicans and independants. All have different ideas and whos to say whats going to fix the economy... Everytime I read a different post I want to change my mind. If I dont shoot over 575 at nationals I will. (that way I can say I gave center hold a chance) My opinion on the hold issue seems to what most of us think. If you dont shoot sub 6 already you should at least give it an honest try.( I gave it a weak try but like others found myself shooting center hold high shoots on accident on a regular basis.)... Not Bob.