For me personally what works best is short but often training. When I had the time and weekends free I would train about 100 rounds of FP on Sat and/or Sun. The rest of the week was at least 4 nights of 30-40 rounds of AP. My training was very focused and this was when I was building my ability up and every time I went back to nationals I would move up my place in the finals. Last year about this time as I was getting ready for the NRA sectional I only dry fired and used Rika for FP and shot a PR by a few points. I have a large base of many years to rely on but I was able to train without shooting a shot for FP. For what ever reason my AP did not benefit the same as my FP did.
You need to be able to see when you are doing something wrong an then trouble shoot how to fix it so you do not continue to build a bad habit.
good luck
How much ammunition do you shoot at each training session?
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Kate:
First, a disclaimer. I am not a highly skilled RF shooter. I have never actually competed in international RF (well, once). So of course take the following observations with a healthy dose of skepticism!
Rapid fire technique requires a very high degree of consistency involving getting the first shot off quickly, smoothly, and accurately.
So far so good. You can train for the first shot using dry fire drills.
However, what makes rapid fire ammunition intensive is the technical requirement to recover/shoot/move/ between shots.
The best way to train for shots 2-last requires expending ammunition I'm afraid. While there are training drills that could assist in this, quite quickly in ashooter's development they will need to begin firing live rounds.
A lot of live rounds.
At the higher ends of competition, Rapid Fire is somewhat unique in that for each training event, a single integrated execution of technique requires 5 rounds (or more). 100 "reps" would then consume 500 rounds. A single training session, lasting perhaps one hour, could easily consist of multiple sets of 20-50 reps, burning 500-1,000 or more rounds.
That would be equivalent to an air pistol shooter executing 200 "lifts," of which only about 10% - 30% of lifts require live fire.
RF training session = 500-1,000 live rounds
AP training session = 20 - 60 rounds
If you are serious, you should be doing "2 a days."
Yes, RF gets expensive.
Steve Swartz
[The good news is you shouldn't be burning that much ammo when first starting out. The fundamentals of RF - the very basic basics - can consist of first shot and sweep drills for quite a while. But again, once you get the hang of it, full live series will be required . . . also, technology can help accelerate improvement and reduce live fire, but then again, you would need a RIKA/SCATT/NOPTEL and a competition RF gun that can execute multiple dry fires in series.]
First, a disclaimer. I am not a highly skilled RF shooter. I have never actually competed in international RF (well, once). So of course take the following observations with a healthy dose of skepticism!
Rapid fire technique requires a very high degree of consistency involving getting the first shot off quickly, smoothly, and accurately.
So far so good. You can train for the first shot using dry fire drills.
However, what makes rapid fire ammunition intensive is the technical requirement to recover/shoot/move/ between shots.
The best way to train for shots 2-last requires expending ammunition I'm afraid. While there are training drills that could assist in this, quite quickly in ashooter's development they will need to begin firing live rounds.
A lot of live rounds.
At the higher ends of competition, Rapid Fire is somewhat unique in that for each training event, a single integrated execution of technique requires 5 rounds (or more). 100 "reps" would then consume 500 rounds. A single training session, lasting perhaps one hour, could easily consist of multiple sets of 20-50 reps, burning 500-1,000 or more rounds.
That would be equivalent to an air pistol shooter executing 200 "lifts," of which only about 10% - 30% of lifts require live fire.
RF training session = 500-1,000 live rounds
AP training session = 20 - 60 rounds
If you are serious, you should be doing "2 a days."
Yes, RF gets expensive.
Steve Swartz
[The good news is you shouldn't be burning that much ammo when first starting out. The fundamentals of RF - the very basic basics - can consist of first shot and sweep drills for quite a while. But again, once you get the hang of it, full live series will be required . . . also, technology can help accelerate improvement and reduce live fire, but then again, you would need a RIKA/SCATT/NOPTEL and a competition RF gun that can execute multiple dry fires in series.]
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Guest
Steve, I understand what you are saying. In my opinion, bullseye, timed and rapid fire may require the same ammo expenditure as the recovery from the first shot of 45 is something that must be experienced a lot in order to get your sights realigned and the next shot of quickly and smoothly. My scores with the .45 are starting to approach my scores with the .22 but are still laging behind as I improve. I of course don't have to worry about shooting international rapid fire because I am a girl. :-) I can't even figure out if women are allowed to shoot free pistol. It does not seem to be an Olympic event for women. Are they allowed to compete with the men here in the US? Kate
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Reinhamre:
I am a firm believer that "cross training" with the multi-shot APs can be a huge benefit for RF. I work with a couple of people who do just that.
If the choice is between:
- training once a week with the competition gun and shooting a bucket of ammo in one session on Sunday vs.
-shooting daily at home with an AP then supplementing with "real" training for a brief session every other week
I would argue regular training on "the most similar" AP will beat the infrequent but high quantity training. Just set up your AP gun (in terms of weight, grips, sights, etc. etc.) as close as possible to your competition gun. Make the conditions as "translatable" as possible.
As you get closer to a match, carefully (don't just reinforce bad habits with large volumes) ramp up your competition gun drills unitl you are shooting "full matches" under "match conditions" a week or so before the competition.
The key is to have a training PLAN based on improving on the KEY TECHNIQUE ELEMENTS in such a way that youa re achieving high "bang" for your training "buck" (time and money).
Kate:
- Women are allowed to shoot Free Pistol against the men in club matches and here in the US; this is kind of weird situation right now. Women are apparently allowed to compete in men's events but not vice versa. I'm not even sure how our national governing body is handling this. I have heard that women's scores in Free Pistol being submitted to USAS are going into the records.
- I would caution you not to get too enthusiastic about the benefits of Flinch Training*. I agree that yes, training rapid fire for bullseye is similar to RF in international. I would recommend pyramid drills (first shot drills, then two shot drills, three shot drills, etc.) so that you NEVER release a shot that is "rushed." I have a bunch of variations on the pyramid drills if you are interested.
Steve
*Flinch Training: going to the range to shoot a bunch of five shot strings with your .45
I am a firm believer that "cross training" with the multi-shot APs can be a huge benefit for RF. I work with a couple of people who do just that.
If the choice is between:
- training once a week with the competition gun and shooting a bucket of ammo in one session on Sunday vs.
-shooting daily at home with an AP then supplementing with "real" training for a brief session every other week
I would argue regular training on "the most similar" AP will beat the infrequent but high quantity training. Just set up your AP gun (in terms of weight, grips, sights, etc. etc.) as close as possible to your competition gun. Make the conditions as "translatable" as possible.
As you get closer to a match, carefully (don't just reinforce bad habits with large volumes) ramp up your competition gun drills unitl you are shooting "full matches" under "match conditions" a week or so before the competition.
The key is to have a training PLAN based on improving on the KEY TECHNIQUE ELEMENTS in such a way that youa re achieving high "bang" for your training "buck" (time and money).
Kate:
- Women are allowed to shoot Free Pistol against the men in club matches and here in the US; this is kind of weird situation right now. Women are apparently allowed to compete in men's events but not vice versa. I'm not even sure how our national governing body is handling this. I have heard that women's scores in Free Pistol being submitted to USAS are going into the records.
- I would caution you not to get too enthusiastic about the benefits of Flinch Training*. I agree that yes, training rapid fire for bullseye is similar to RF in international. I would recommend pyramid drills (first shot drills, then two shot drills, three shot drills, etc.) so that you NEVER release a shot that is "rushed." I have a bunch of variations on the pyramid drills if you are interested.
Steve
*Flinch Training: going to the range to shoot a bunch of five shot strings with your .45
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
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Guest
"Oh Yeah if you are shooting bullseye your training routine must eventually include about 30 minutes a day with the Dillon 650 . . . !"
I do the marathon three hour sesion with my dillion 550b about every other weekend. I hope this condensed training doesn't affect my proficiency. :-)
I know what you mean about the one shot, two shot, three shot drills. We did a lot of those at a Zins clinic that I went to in January and they really seemed to help. I shot my first international match at Phoenix a few weeks ago. I was allowed to shoot standard pistol and then shot Sport's pistol during the CF match. I didn't see any women shooting free pistol and then looked it up later and realized that there was no women's division. There seem to be very few events where you would actually have enough women to have a competition, maybe at the USA shooting team try outs? Bullseye seems so much simpler. I compete in my classification, and sex be dam*d. :-) Kate
I do the marathon three hour sesion with my dillion 550b about every other weekend. I hope this condensed training doesn't affect my proficiency. :-)
I know what you mean about the one shot, two shot, three shot drills. We did a lot of those at a Zins clinic that I went to in January and they really seemed to help. I shot my first international match at Phoenix a few weeks ago. I was allowed to shoot standard pistol and then shot Sport's pistol during the CF match. I didn't see any women shooting free pistol and then looked it up later and realized that there was no women's division. There seem to be very few events where you would actually have enough women to have a competition, maybe at the USA shooting team try outs? Bullseye seems so much simpler. I compete in my classification, and sex be dam*d. :-) Kate
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Beginner BE
ammunition fired and training
This discussion comes at an interesting time for me. I have decided to become much more serious about my bullseye training. I recently acquired a used LP5 air pistol, mostly for indoor practice, especially in the winter, due earning a living and nasty weather. Even in good weather, I plan to concentrate on the .22 to get better fundamentals. I am also looking at small turning target systems. I also see that there is a .45 like grip available for the LP5, which I plan to buy.Steve Swartz wrote:Reinhamre:
I am a firm believer that "cross training" . . .
I would argue regular training on "the most similar" AP . . .
The key is to have a training PLAN based on improving on the KEY TECHNIQUE ELEMENTS . . .
What would be a good training regimen that includes dry firing, air pistol, and .22? I am looking for a good balance between all these. During the week I can find daily 15 minute segments (three)for dry firing without too much problem. I could also find time for 30 minutes of live fire with the air pistol and sometimes the .22, depending on daylight and weather (unless dry fire would be better). Weekends are usually more flexible.
Any thoughts, help, suggestions, clues, or magic incantations would be appreciated.
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John Kasaian
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:57 pm
Beginner BE,
Yes, I'm in the same situation. I am trying to keep things basic by working on one or two things at a time. I go to the gym and hold a dumbell "pistol grip style" raising it from a 45 deg., holding, then lowering it for many, very slow repetitions.
Very basic, but when I dry fire at home with my pistol I think it helps my steadiness.
At the range, I work on the first shot in the string, acquiring the target, trigger squeeze and build upon that. Right now I don't shoot a lot, because in my experience I've learned that I don't want to any "reinforce" bad habits I may have unkowingly picked up. Until I can find a coach to observe me, I have to rely on scores to give me an indications of what I'm doing right or wrong. Raising my pistol from the 45 deg. and nailing the 9 ring or better every time is my first goal. Once I'm satisfied I've introduced the second target, then the first, third and fifth targets before all five and hone my times (I'm attempting Int'l RF.) For time, I am concentrating on the 6 second limit. Since I am not yet shooting at all 5 targets, 6 secnods is more than ample time. Whether or not I stick with 6 seconds when I reach all five targets remains to be seen---but it "feels" right (to me) so far.
Competing with my "imaginary" comrades, as suggested here by Reinhamre sounds like an excellent addition to my program.
If I can avoid bad habits, there should come a point when I'd need to shoot more cartridges to make my "good habits" become second nature.
This is where I'm at (so far!) I'm greatful for guidence from those who have travelled this path before me, because honestly this is all new (to me!)
Oh, one more thing, I'm thinking of adding some postal shoots to my training. Not the RF course (I don't feel like I'm "there" yet) but in other disciplines.
I do have mixed feelings about this as I don't want it be a distraction that might introduce bad habits or take away from my traiining time, but it does sound like fun (and in my twisted way of thinking, shooting should be fun!) USRA has some postal shoots that sound like fun (a free pistol postal and a snub nose postal) but I've been reluctant to pursue them because I know nothing about the USRA. Is anyone here familiar with them?
Yes, I'm in the same situation. I am trying to keep things basic by working on one or two things at a time. I go to the gym and hold a dumbell "pistol grip style" raising it from a 45 deg., holding, then lowering it for many, very slow repetitions.
Very basic, but when I dry fire at home with my pistol I think it helps my steadiness.
At the range, I work on the first shot in the string, acquiring the target, trigger squeeze and build upon that. Right now I don't shoot a lot, because in my experience I've learned that I don't want to any "reinforce" bad habits I may have unkowingly picked up. Until I can find a coach to observe me, I have to rely on scores to give me an indications of what I'm doing right or wrong. Raising my pistol from the 45 deg. and nailing the 9 ring or better every time is my first goal. Once I'm satisfied I've introduced the second target, then the first, third and fifth targets before all five and hone my times (I'm attempting Int'l RF.) For time, I am concentrating on the 6 second limit. Since I am not yet shooting at all 5 targets, 6 secnods is more than ample time. Whether or not I stick with 6 seconds when I reach all five targets remains to be seen---but it "feels" right (to me) so far.
Competing with my "imaginary" comrades, as suggested here by Reinhamre sounds like an excellent addition to my program.
If I can avoid bad habits, there should come a point when I'd need to shoot more cartridges to make my "good habits" become second nature.
This is where I'm at (so far!) I'm greatful for guidence from those who have travelled this path before me, because honestly this is all new (to me!)
Oh, one more thing, I'm thinking of adding some postal shoots to my training. Not the RF course (I don't feel like I'm "there" yet) but in other disciplines.
I do have mixed feelings about this as I don't want it be a distraction that might introduce bad habits or take away from my traiining time, but it does sound like fun (and in my twisted way of thinking, shooting should be fun!) USRA has some postal shoots that sound like fun (a free pistol postal and a snub nose postal) but I've been reluctant to pursue them because I know nothing about the USRA. Is anyone here familiar with them?
Two thoughts:
Weight lifting should be with BOTH arms. Itsoundslike you work out pretty regularly which I think Iis very helpful. One problem pistols shooters run into is with their backs, necks, etc, because they lift the pistol in the same motion and same arm. Work both arms to maintian balance.
Second, when you said "I work on the first shot in the string, acquiring the target" consider "acquiring my front sight". The target will be there. Acquiring the correct alignment and maintaining the alignment is more critical.
Has anybody mentioned swinging the body and not the arm from targets one to five?
Weight lifting should be with BOTH arms. Itsoundslike you work out pretty regularly which I think Iis very helpful. One problem pistols shooters run into is with their backs, necks, etc, because they lift the pistol in the same motion and same arm. Work both arms to maintian balance.
Second, when you said "I work on the first shot in the string, acquiring the target" consider "acquiring my front sight". The target will be there. Acquiring the correct alignment and maintaining the alignment is more critical.
Has anybody mentioned swinging the body and not the arm from targets one to five?
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Pete:
Great technique question! I have observed various degrees of "torso rotation" in conjunction with "shoulder rotation" among skilled shooters.
Calling John Bickar . . . ? How do you see "arm swing" vs. "torso rotation" as an issue?
I think we can agree the feet don't move (but some discussion as to which way the feet are biased; mainly toward target one sweet spot but how much to compromise in the direction of center target?) but foot position will interact with amount of torso/arm movement?
Steve Swartz
Great technique question! I have observed various degrees of "torso rotation" in conjunction with "shoulder rotation" among skilled shooters.
Calling John Bickar . . . ? How do you see "arm swing" vs. "torso rotation" as an issue?
I think we can agree the feet don't move (but some discussion as to which way the feet are biased; mainly toward target one sweet spot but how much to compromise in the direction of center target?) but foot position will interact with amount of torso/arm movement?
Steve Swartz