Shifting NPOA
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
Shifting NPOA
Okay, I just shot a 60 shot mock international match in preparation for a big match coming up in VA. I hung two targets side-by-side three times. My scores were, respectively, 97-92,97-92,95-92. I'm worried about the pattern of dropping between the left and right targets. i think it's my NPOA. I haven't seen a pattern this obvious before so I don't know if it's just a coincidence but I feel it definitely shows a problem with either my NPOA or possibly my endurance. Any ideas about the problem or fixes? I'm practicing tommorrow and probably Friday, so I'll keep the scores updated :)
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
I always change my NPOA even when I move to a different column, I just don't think I'm changing it correctly. I've heard alot of ways to change it, moving both feet the distance between columns, moving your left or right feet etc. I just wanted to know if there are any other things that can possibly cause this problem or any suggestions about how shooters change their NPOA.
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
My club hangs two targets side-by-side for all of the following matches :3x20 3PAR,3x20 3Psmallbore, 40/60 shot international, pretty much whenever more than ten shots is required in one position. What are the alternatives?
I can't shoot right to left because we can't shoot sighters on the second targets. I suppose I could hang them in the reverse order but I I think I would still have a problem going to the left one.
I can't shoot right to left because we can't shoot sighters on the second targets. I suppose I could hang them in the reverse order but I I think I would still have a problem going to the left one.
Last edited by WaltherWill on Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
Yeah, my club is, i don't want to say small but, not very big. Twelve indoor points for either 50ft or 10m with an outdoor range that can support 50/100yds. We have one automatic target return system that we can put a single bull card on but we haven't had a chance to install it to work for the Standing position (I used it once for benchrest pellet testing). I have never been to a match that supported electronic systems but I look forward to the experience and I think it's a growing thing, this electronics stuff :)
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isuguncoach
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- Location: central illinois
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Waltherwill,
Next time at practice hang your cards, shoot the 1st one, then break position, and walk away from the line. Give your self a couple of minutes, then go to the line and shoot the 2nd card. If you reestablish your posiiton, and NPOA, the scores should be comparable. Could give you some insight into what you are doing when you try to shoot the 20 shots in a match.
Just a suggestion to try and find out what you are doing.
Joe
Next time at practice hang your cards, shoot the 1st one, then break position, and walk away from the line. Give your self a couple of minutes, then go to the line and shoot the 2nd card. If you reestablish your posiiton, and NPOA, the scores should be comparable. Could give you some insight into what you are doing when you try to shoot the 20 shots in a match.
Just a suggestion to try and find out what you are doing.
Joe
Walterwill
Our club also posts two targets at a time, and NPA is always a BIG thing to keep up with.
Most of our top shooters have used minor foot positioning to adjust within one ten bull target, but either walk awya and return, or take a step toward the second target before firing on it.
You should be checking your NPA at the beginning of each column (eyes closed and relax, etc). Also, realize than your muscles will loosen up during the first part of the match (causing slight changes in NPA), and then the muscles may begin to tighten during the later part of the match (depending on your overall core conditioning), again affecting NPA.
You may want to try training with two targets and on the second target dry fire once prior to each live shot - and watch for any movement in the sight picture which is NPA related (moving to one side or the other after firing).
Hope this helps.
Our club also posts two targets at a time, and NPA is always a BIG thing to keep up with.
Most of our top shooters have used minor foot positioning to adjust within one ten bull target, but either walk awya and return, or take a step toward the second target before firing on it.
You should be checking your NPA at the beginning of each column (eyes closed and relax, etc). Also, realize than your muscles will loosen up during the first part of the match (causing slight changes in NPA), and then the muscles may begin to tighten during the later part of the match (depending on your overall core conditioning), again affecting NPA.
You may want to try training with two targets and on the second target dry fire once prior to each live shot - and watch for any movement in the sight picture which is NPA related (moving to one side or the other after firing).
Hope this helps.
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
Update
Hey everyone, sorry to disappoint but I think I may have just had an off day. Tonight I shot 95-95,95-96,98-96. i concentrated more on alot of different things (follow-through, resting between shots and targets, NPOA, especially) so i don't really know what did the trick but I'm much happier with these scores. But if I have the problem again, I'll know where to come
Thanks
William
Thanks
William
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WaltherWill
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm
- Location: Yorktown, VA
Confirmation
I'm pretty sure now it was just a fluke. I shot another sixty today, 97-94,95-96,97-95.
NPA
Hi Will,
I have been doing NPA testing across two 12 bull targets for the last five months. I have found that not only do i have to check the NPA often (about every 2-3 shots). I shoot each column starting with the sighter column, then left, then right and continue going right onto the next target.
I have found that not only do I have to make the expected change between the columns BUT ALSO a slight change as I go DOWN the target. My NPA seems to drift a hair to the right as I lower the gun on to the lower bulls.
The differences can REALLY be seen if you take your jacket off periodically. The issues become more noticeable.
One thing that changed my NPA the most changing the width of my foot span. Something you might want to test on anyway - for both stability and NPA changes. Let me know what you find. B
I have been doing NPA testing across two 12 bull targets for the last five months. I have found that not only do i have to check the NPA often (about every 2-3 shots). I shoot each column starting with the sighter column, then left, then right and continue going right onto the next target.
I have found that not only do I have to make the expected change between the columns BUT ALSO a slight change as I go DOWN the target. My NPA seems to drift a hair to the right as I lower the gun on to the lower bulls.
The differences can REALLY be seen if you take your jacket off periodically. The issues become more noticeable.
One thing that changed my NPA the most changing the width of my foot span. Something you might want to test on anyway - for both stability and NPA changes. Let me know what you find. B
As an aside here....
I've just reveiwed the ISSF rules, and as far as I can tell there is no rule which prohibits a shooter from firing on the side by side targets in a R to L order. ISSF normally thinks of single card targets or electronics.
That said, the "old" USAS rules (derived from ISSF) are the same way, no prohibition on shooting R to L. <new USAS rules are not out yet>
For 3x20 Air - The latest "On The Mark" CMP publication specifically addresses, and allows, this concept.
If I had a shooter that wished to do this, just as a courtesy to the RO, I'd have them inform the RO so there was no confusion during the actual firing time.
I've just reveiwed the ISSF rules, and as far as I can tell there is no rule which prohibits a shooter from firing on the side by side targets in a R to L order. ISSF normally thinks of single card targets or electronics.
That said, the "old" USAS rules (derived from ISSF) are the same way, no prohibition on shooting R to L. <new USAS rules are not out yet>
For 3x20 Air - The latest "On The Mark" CMP publication specifically addresses, and allows, this concept.
I would in fact go further and say that the target marked #1 is for the sighter shots ... i.e the "first" target , and the shooter could fire the record 20 bulls in any order they wanted (why one would I have no clue), but since those targets are scored as a 20 shot group (i.e. the "extra" shots rule applies across the hung 20 record bulls), as long as the shooter understands that they will be SCORED in a certain numbered/sequenced order, it is their call how to shoot them.Dec 2008 Issue---
Q: I have a shooter that would rather shoot the right target first when shooting a 20-shot series on two 10 bull’s-eye targets. Is it okay for a competitor to shoot their targets in “reverse” order?
A: Yes, as long as the targets are properly identified (target #1 is on the right). It is legal for a competitor to shoot the record bulls in any order, and when two 10 bull’s-eye targets are hung either target may be fired first. When two targets are hung for a 20-shot series, the targets must be marked to identify which target is fired first. (Rule 5.4.2)
If I had a shooter that wished to do this, just as a courtesy to the RO, I'd have them inform the RO so there was no confusion during the actual firing time.
I check my NPA on every shot, no matter the position. This is really only for advanced shooters, lets say 550+. I don't look through my sights until I have relaxed and am ready to shoot. If the bull is not at least touching my front aperture between 10 and 2 o'clock, I put it down.
Some similar methods for shooters of other abilities is to get them to have the bull inside the front globe, idealy above the 3 to 9 line, and for beginners, have at least a part of the target in the front globe.
Another good rule of thumb is to put the rifle down if it drops below the bull. That's a little arbitrary, but if the bottom of the bull ends up above the center of my sights, I put it down. Maybe some other levels of this would be the bull getting above the front aperture or above the front globe. We naturally can relax down to the bull, but we can only muscle back up to the bull.
Some similar methods for shooters of other abilities is to get them to have the bull inside the front globe, idealy above the 3 to 9 line, and for beginners, have at least a part of the target in the front globe.
Another good rule of thumb is to put the rifle down if it drops below the bull. That's a little arbitrary, but if the bottom of the bull ends up above the center of my sights, I put it down. Maybe some other levels of this would be the bull getting above the front aperture or above the front globe. We naturally can relax down to the bull, but we can only muscle back up to the bull.