What factors (physical) impact/control just how 'still' one can hold? 2 weeks ago I was able to hold the AP quite still but last week my hold was all over the place. Obviously fatigue is a factor - but what else?
Cheers
David
Holding Still (as possible)
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It's probably easier to list the things that don't effect your hold.... here they are:
I couldn't think of any, basically your looking at fine motor skill and just about anything and everything will effect your hold. Also the other thing to remember it might not be the steadiness of your hold that has change but your perception of it.
I couldn't think of any, basically your looking at fine motor skill and just about anything and everything will effect your hold. Also the other thing to remember it might not be the steadiness of your hold that has change but your perception of it.
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deadeyedick
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The steadiness of your hold is not nearly as important as the sight picture . Focusing on keeping the sight picture as correct as possible will produce the best result, and distract you from movements that are inevitible, and will vary from day to day. Sometimes trying to hold steady will make it worse, ...and if sights are aligned perfectly, the POI will only vary the amount of your wobble.....whereas if sight picture varies, then at 25m. the POI will be extreme by comparison.
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Ralf
That wasn't the question.deadeyedick wrote:The steadiness of your hold is not nearly as important as the sight picture . Focusing on keeping the sight picture as correct as possible will produce the best result, and distract you from movements that are inevitible, and will vary from day to day. Sometimes trying to hold steady will make it worse, ...and if sights are aligned perfectly, the POI will only vary the amount of your wobble.....whereas if sight picture varies, then at 25m. the POI will be extreme by comparison.
I think that the statement "Focusing on keeping the sight picture as correct as possible will produce the best result, and distract you from movements that are inevitible, and will vary from day to day." is just a lot of bull.
Why?
Because it all hangs together. It will be very difficult to focus on the correct sight picture when the sights are all over the target. If hold is the weak link then the results will be bad. If sight allignment is bad the results will be bad. If sight picture is bad the results will be bad.
Re: Holding Still (as possible)
I'm no Olympian, but I sometimes hold dang steady. I get the best results if I sense I am lifting my gun with my wrist and arm clear back to the shoulder as one. Keeping my eye steady also helps.higginsdj wrote:What factors (physical) impact/control just how 'still' one can hold? 2 weeks ago I was able to hold the AP quite still but last week my hold was all over the place. Obviously fatigue is a factor - but what else?
Cheers
David
Luv it!Richard H wrote:It's probably easier to list the things that don't effect your hold.... here they are:
I couldn't think of any, basically your looking at fine motor skill and just about anything and everything will effect your hold. Also the other thing to remember it might not be the steadiness of your hold that has change but your perception of it.
Succinct and accurate!
Spencer
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deadeyedick
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Ralf
Guest
I know it wasn.t the point Ralph...but I was trying to illustrate [ obviously not very well ] that hand movement/shakes/call it whatever you want seem to be a part of our physiological reality, and are present in varying degrees daily, and as someone else rightfully said, can be made worse by a variety of external influences such as alcohol, caffeine, fatigue etc. However the reality is that they exist in us all, and it seems we have to accept what is dished up to us on any particular day. Almost nothing I have tried when the hand movements are at their worst has had ANY effect, and I have tried many approaches. I have found that the best antidote for shaking, is to make the best of it by focusing on correct technique...sight picture, trigger press, and follow through. Attention paid to these basic principles makes the best of a potentially bad day. Was my response related to David Higgins question?....in a roundabout way yes. When you are having a bad "hold" day, nothing I have learnt in 30 years of shooting and coaching has helped. But focusing on correct technique minimises collateral damage with regards to scores, and also trains your subconcious to handle negative situations [shaking ] in a positive way.
Guest
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject:
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deadeyedick wrote:
The steadiness of your hold is not nearly as important as the sight picture . Focusing on keeping the sight picture as correct as possible will produce the best result, and distract you from movements that are inevitible, and will vary from day to day. Sometimes trying to hold steady will make it worse, ...and if sights are aligned perfectly, the POI will only vary the amount of your wobble.....whereas if sight picture varies, then at 25m. the POI will be extreme by comparison.
That wasn't the question.
I think that the statement "Focusing on keeping the sight picture as correct as possible will produce the best result, and distract you from movements that are inevitible, and will vary from day to day." is just a lot of bull.
Why?
Because it all hangs together. It will be very difficult to focus on the correct sight picture when the sights are all over the target. If hold is the weak link then the results will be bad. If sight allignment is bad the results will be bad. If sight picture is bad the results will be bad.
I know it wasn.t the point Ralph...but I was trying to illustrate [ obviously not very well ] that hand movement/shakes/call it whatever you want seem to be a part of our physiological reality, and are present in varying degrees daily, and as someone else rightfully said, can be made worse by a variety of external influences such as alcohol, caffeine, fatigue etc. However the reality is that they exist in us all, and it seems we have to accept what is dished up to us on any particular day. Almost nothing I have tried when the hand movements are at their worst has had ANY effect, and I have tried many approaches. I have found that the best antidote for shaking, is to make the best of it by focusing on correct technique...sight picture, trigger press, and follow through. Attention paid to these basic principles makes the best of a potentially bad day. Was my response related to David Higgins question?....in a roundabout way yes. When you are having a bad "hold" day, nothing I have learnt in 30 years of shooting and coaching has helped. But focusing on correct technique minimises collateral damage with regards to scores, and also trains your subconcious to handle negative situations [shaking ] in a positive way.
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Ralf
It's not a slump that top shooters have a more steady hold than the rest of us. It is a lot easier to shoot tens with a steady hold than without. Hold is not the most important factor, but still important. As I said before, it all sticks together - hold, sight picture, careful trigger, sight allignment...
The good news is that steadyness can be improved a lot by specific steadyness training. But its not controllable by just thinking "hold still"
Like you said, focusing on things that you can contol is always the best advice. Technique, relaxed stance etc. Worrying about a shaky hold during a competition doesn't do much good, since it's not directly controllable by your mind and body.
//Ralf
The good news is that steadyness can be improved a lot by specific steadyness training. But its not controllable by just thinking "hold still"
Like you said, focusing on things that you can contol is always the best advice. Technique, relaxed stance etc. Worrying about a shaky hold during a competition doesn't do much good, since it's not directly controllable by your mind and body.
//Ralf
Why not tell yourself to hold still? And, what is described by a "careful trigger?"
First, let's examine "still."
What does it mean to you, personally?
There are several factors to study:
1) the natural movement of the sights to each other as referenced by your eye
2) the natural movement of the sights to the target as referenced by your eye
3) the movement of the system as directed by your subconscious
4) the movement of the system as directed by your conscious
1 and 2 can be observed, but not controlled. Study and take notes about these motions. Look for the null patterns within.
1, 2 and 3 can be influenced by training. Hold training should not be integrated with dry fire training, lest you learn the misapplication of the trigger.
4 can very much be controlled by telling yourself to hold still for the shot. By this, I mean to stop making conscious corrections. Allow the hold to float naturally over your aiming area. Tell yourself to hold still, rather than to stop correcting. Accept your hold and finish your shot. Tell yourself that your hold is the best it will be and complete the process.
Now let's move to "careful trigger." The reason I disagree with this term is that it promotes a hesitant, questioning, evaluation of the trigger operation. The trigger should be a determined, confident, application, that is "known" to produce the desired result.
All comments always welcome, even disagreements...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
First, let's examine "still."
What does it mean to you, personally?
There are several factors to study:
1) the natural movement of the sights to each other as referenced by your eye
2) the natural movement of the sights to the target as referenced by your eye
3) the movement of the system as directed by your subconscious
4) the movement of the system as directed by your conscious
1 and 2 can be observed, but not controlled. Study and take notes about these motions. Look for the null patterns within.
1, 2 and 3 can be influenced by training. Hold training should not be integrated with dry fire training, lest you learn the misapplication of the trigger.
4 can very much be controlled by telling yourself to hold still for the shot. By this, I mean to stop making conscious corrections. Allow the hold to float naturally over your aiming area. Tell yourself to hold still, rather than to stop correcting. Accept your hold and finish your shot. Tell yourself that your hold is the best it will be and complete the process.
Now let's move to "careful trigger." The reason I disagree with this term is that it promotes a hesitant, questioning, evaluation of the trigger operation. The trigger should be a determined, confident, application, that is "known" to produce the desired result.
All comments always welcome, even disagreements...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
Wow - I never realised by body was so uncontrollable :)
Seriously, however, I must admit to a couple of things after reading these posts and reviewing my 'performance'. First is that the hold movement was not smooth and second, when I had correct focus on the sight picture I did't even notice the movement on the target (ie it didn't appear that I was moving the hold enough to register - maybe)
Cheers
David
Seriously, however, I must admit to a couple of things after reading these posts and reviewing my 'performance'. First is that the hold movement was not smooth and second, when I had correct focus on the sight picture I did't even notice the movement on the target (ie it didn't appear that I was moving the hold enough to register - maybe)
Cheers
David
one mistake i made a while back was while i was squeezing the trigger if i had a bad wobble or i got outside my area of aim i was easing off the pressure of the trigger squeez then reapplying it. What i wasnt realizing that most of the time my hold was still within the 9 ring and even if the shot broke outside my hold it would only be a few 8s instead of lots of 8s put there by my trigger
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deadeyedick
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guests
very well said by Ed once again
from a lot of past discussion in the archives
1. look at scatt/rika traces of top shooters. there are an awful lot of 10s shot with 8 ring holds. Look at scatt/rika traces of mediocre shooters. there are an awful lot of 7s shot with 9 ring holds.
2. if the sights are aligned and trigger control is smooth, shots will always fall *inside* your call. if either sights not aligned or trigger not smooth, shots will always fall *outside* your call.
3. if you want to shoot up to your potential (very few people get anywhere close to shooting up to their potential), work on perfect shot release (trigger, subconsious) during perfect alignment. if you want to increase your potential, work on hold (stillness silliness). the highest "bang for your buck" will always be improving your process, not trying to defy phsyics.
Steve Swartz
from a lot of past discussion in the archives
1. look at scatt/rika traces of top shooters. there are an awful lot of 10s shot with 8 ring holds. Look at scatt/rika traces of mediocre shooters. there are an awful lot of 7s shot with 9 ring holds.
2. if the sights are aligned and trigger control is smooth, shots will always fall *inside* your call. if either sights not aligned or trigger not smooth, shots will always fall *outside* your call.
3. if you want to shoot up to your potential (very few people get anywhere close to shooting up to their potential), work on perfect shot release (trigger, subconsious) during perfect alignment. if you want to increase your potential, work on hold (stillness silliness). the highest "bang for your buck" will always be improving your process, not trying to defy phsyics.
Steve Swartz
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marlin1881
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Disclaimer... I am a new AP shooter, and have limited experience with BE.
It seems that when I practice the AP in my basement, that I get much steadier after about 20 shots. Seems like my shoulder muscles settle in a bit from being stressed by holding the gun at arms length. I've noticed this in BE, as my shot-to-shot scoring gets better as the match continues. Now, I've got to figure out how to pre-load that "settled-in" feeling, BEFORE the match starts.
I can also tell you what NOT to do... I have allergies, and some days my eyes are much clearer than other days. I've noticed that taking a decongestant does help the clarity. BUT, it gives me the shakes something awful. It's like being on a caffeine high!!! I started my last BE match that way, and I didn't know what I was going to do. I finally settled in, but a lot of strange scores were shot by then.
Heartbeat moves my sights around. Breathing patterns help that.
Muscle twitches will drive me insane at times. I find that weight lifting helps minimize that, but don't lift within a couple days of a match.
JMO...
Marlin
It seems that when I practice the AP in my basement, that I get much steadier after about 20 shots. Seems like my shoulder muscles settle in a bit from being stressed by holding the gun at arms length. I've noticed this in BE, as my shot-to-shot scoring gets better as the match continues. Now, I've got to figure out how to pre-load that "settled-in" feeling, BEFORE the match starts.
I can also tell you what NOT to do... I have allergies, and some days my eyes are much clearer than other days. I've noticed that taking a decongestant does help the clarity. BUT, it gives me the shakes something awful. It's like being on a caffeine high!!! I started my last BE match that way, and I didn't know what I was going to do. I finally settled in, but a lot of strange scores were shot by then.
Heartbeat moves my sights around. Breathing patterns help that.
Muscle twitches will drive me insane at times. I find that weight lifting helps minimize that, but don't lift within a couple days of a match.
JMO...
Marlin
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Patrick Haynes
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- Contact:
Shooting Performance Factors
Noptel released a study (okay, part study with view to marketing) which it says explained the key characteristics of pistol shooting. Notably they came up with this equation:
Results = Hold - Aiming +/- Trigger.
Okay, hold sets the upper limit of your performance. Consequently, if you improve your hold, you increase the upper limits of your performance.
Aiming always detracts from your performance. The key for aiming is to reduce the negative impact of your aim (precision and consistency).
Triggering is tricky. A good trigger has no impact on aiming placement (where you aim is what you hit). A bad trigger pulls it away from the point of aim AND the "10". A magical (lucky) trigger pushes it into the "10". Believe it or not, there are people who consistently push/pull their shots into the "10". (If only I could buy that skill...) As a training goal, you work on a consistent and good trigger which doesn't disturb the shot placement from your point of aim.
So, you work on your hold. As Richard wisely noted, hold is affected by everything. Fatigue, congestion, fever, dehydration, etc. are some of the least acknowledged culprits. As long as you're alive, you will have movement. Core training, shoulder and grip strength, rest and good nutrition will all assist in the development of your hold.
Lots of fun. Good luck!
Patrick
Results = Hold - Aiming +/- Trigger.
Okay, hold sets the upper limit of your performance. Consequently, if you improve your hold, you increase the upper limits of your performance.
Aiming always detracts from your performance. The key for aiming is to reduce the negative impact of your aim (precision and consistency).
Triggering is tricky. A good trigger has no impact on aiming placement (where you aim is what you hit). A bad trigger pulls it away from the point of aim AND the "10". A magical (lucky) trigger pushes it into the "10". Believe it or not, there are people who consistently push/pull their shots into the "10". (If only I could buy that skill...) As a training goal, you work on a consistent and good trigger which doesn't disturb the shot placement from your point of aim.
So, you work on your hold. As Richard wisely noted, hold is affected by everything. Fatigue, congestion, fever, dehydration, etc. are some of the least acknowledged culprits. As long as you're alive, you will have movement. Core training, shoulder and grip strength, rest and good nutrition will all assist in the development of your hold.
Lots of fun. Good luck!
Patrick
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guests
Consistency of hold is much more important than size of wobble area.
Raising your "potential" doesn't mean squat if you are nowhere near shooting at your current potential . . . and have no plans on how to get there.
Sigh.
Patrick, do you have a link to the Noptel "study?" As a researcher myself, I have frequently found the various "interprefications" of results by the authors themselves and journalists etc. frequently differ (at least in magnitude) from what the data actually provide.
And "industry" studies, while not automatically slanted one way or another, frequently are.
Steve Swartz
Freezing in Maine
Raising your "potential" doesn't mean squat if you are nowhere near shooting at your current potential . . . and have no plans on how to get there.
Sigh.
Patrick, do you have a link to the Noptel "study?" As a researcher myself, I have frequently found the various "interprefications" of results by the authors themselves and journalists etc. frequently differ (at least in magnitude) from what the data actually provide.
And "industry" studies, while not automatically slanted one way or another, frequently are.
Steve Swartz
Freezing in Maine
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Patrick Haynes
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- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:36 pm
- Contact:
Noptel Interpretations
Hi Steve.
Electronic trainers (SCATT, Noptel, Rika, etc.) are never going to tell you what to train on. It simply provides metrics on your performance. From there, the athlete or coach comes up with a plan to improve their numbers and hope that this translates into an actual competitive performance improvement. It is much better than looking at a score which tells you little about why the shots didn't hit the 10.
I agree. The paper is there to assist sales. Nonetheless, its an interesting model that they say describes the shooting experience. Your best best is to contact Noptel, specifically Dr. Juhani Heinula, and request the paper copy of the report, which has more info. Their electronic version is lighter on details.
Take care.
Patrick
All I did was mention the model they developed, based on their studies. As a coach, its interesting to know what an athlete's current upper limit could be based on where they are today. The results indicate what might be an appropriate plan for one's training.guests wrote: Raising your "potential" doesn't mean squat if you are nowhere near shooting at your current potential . . . and have no plans on how to get there.
Electronic trainers (SCATT, Noptel, Rika, etc.) are never going to tell you what to train on. It simply provides metrics on your performance. From there, the athlete or coach comes up with a plan to improve their numbers and hope that this translates into an actual competitive performance improvement. It is much better than looking at a score which tells you little about why the shots didn't hit the 10.
I agree. The paper is there to assist sales. Nonetheless, its an interesting model that they say describes the shooting experience. Your best best is to contact Noptel, specifically Dr. Juhani Heinula, and request the paper copy of the report, which has more info. Their electronic version is lighter on details.
Take care.
Patrick
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sportshooter
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:24 am
I like to keep it simple, because that works best for me every day. If these two factors are consistently good my groupings are often very tight. I always wobble a bit and somedays more, thats not a key factor for me I shoot good anyway because my trigger work stabilizes the barrel.
Superfocus on front sights
Increasing tigger pressure
The consistency is the key to high scores for me, because my mind are focused on doing right stuff and I feel confident. Quite often my front sight is the only thing I see and I am so focused on this that everything else is like a grey blur, I just now that the blurry black dot is there above the front sight and I work on the trigger. When this works good I have shot many shots and no new holes.
Superfocus on front sights
Increasing tigger pressure
The consistency is the key to high scores for me, because my mind are focused on doing right stuff and I feel confident. Quite often my front sight is the only thing I see and I am so focused on this that everything else is like a grey blur, I just now that the blurry black dot is there above the front sight and I work on the trigger. When this works good I have shot many shots and no new holes.