When to Switch?

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:36 am

At what level should a 10 meter air rifle shooter consider changing over from a cocking-type rifle to a compressed air model?

peepsight · Post by **peepsight** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:28 pm

Not sure there is a 'time' to switch, it may be when all those actions and movements you carry out from cocking and lifting up to your shoulder for each shot starts to interfere with your shooting rhythm and a raised heart beat because of it. A good rule of thumb for air rifle is to have as little work load as possible as a 60 shot match can make you fatigued. especially if you are cocking for each shot.

Peeps

xcrunner8k · Post by **xcrunner8k** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:50 pm

when you realize how many points you are losing because of all the movements. i can equate it to my progress through smallbore; i shot the hell out of my program's marlin 2000s before switching to the winchester 52, then shot that thing to its potential before going to free rifle. i guess the bottom line is, i just knew. i knew what i was missing and how to fix it.

so i don't really have an answer, do i.

Jordan F. · Post by **Jordan F.** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:41 pm

I think it is just going by feeling as much as anything. The junior who won the nationals here in Canada was using a crank rifle. She has a feninwerkbau 700 (non crank) rifle as well but feels more confident using her crank. She shot a 391 followed by a 392 and a finals of 104.5 !

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:42 am

I'm not anywhere near shooting good scores yet. I was wondering if there was an average that would signal a change in equipment...maybe 95% or 97% average?

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 pm

My daughter saw me reading this.
She started with a 2002 cocker, now shoots a 2002 CA

Her response was "Yesterday!".

In reality, when you can afford it .... most shooters today (younger juniors) have never used a cocker .... it's kinda novel to them now ... like a phone w/ a dial

TWP · Post by **TWP** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:08 pm

jhmartin wrote:My daughter saw me reading this.
She started with a 2002 cocker, now shoots a 2002 CA

Her response was "Yesterday!".

In reality, when you can afford it .... most shooters today (younger juniors) have never used a cocker .... it's kinda novel to them now ... like a phone w/ a dial

I agree with your daughter.

We don't start any kids on manually operated guns. All Daisy 888's for sporter and FWB or Walthers for precision.

BJ · Post by BJ » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:20 pm

The side cockers really are good rifles. I used a FWB 300 for a long time. The main deciding factor for me to switch was just when I could afford to get a nicer rifle. I was well into the 550s before I switched and now into the mid 570s.

Brian

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:59 am

I agree, it's all down to cost and desire to improve really. The CA gun will allow you to progress and develope your technique based on a compressed air gun. A side cocker will always require a different technique. My feeling is to change as soon as you start thinking about it. You should know enough about guns and the feel you like to enable you to chose a model that suits you.

Rob.

WarWagon · Post by **WarWagon** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:39 am

As soon as you can afford it.

While the old Feinwerkbau was as accurate as anything out there, you just can't touch the CA's. In a sport that is about consistency and repeatibility, nothing is worse than having to break your position on every shot. At a collegiate level, it was inconvenient and tiring when they were only shooting 40 shots air. I sure as heck wouldn't want to do 60 shots plus sighters with a side cocker anymore as is the current NCAA course of fire.

Soupy44 · Post by **Soupy44** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:53 pm

I'm planning on buying a number of Walter LG30 air rifles for my junior program, but I'm also going to buy some Feinwerkbau 300's. The reason for this is 3 fold: appreciation, attention, and motivation.

Many of us, including me, maxed out the accuracy of what we were shooting before replacing it. I shot up to my junior year in high school without a hook butt plate. I to this day, 7 years later, enjoy putting that hook on my rifle at every match because I know what it does for my position. That thought is a mental advantage because as I shoot, I'm all that much more careful about putting it in my shoulder.

That brings me to attention. Having to take the rifle out of position makes you really concentrate on your position. This is something that a CA rifle can hamper the development of. Shooters early on can let their positions fall apart (mainly consistent butt plate placement in the shoulder) when introduced to a CA gun too early.

Last is motivation. I didn't start shooting air rifle until I got to college. My coach had me shoot a Feinwerkbau 300 my first semester and a 600 my second semester. He had a 2002 available to use at the start of my third semester, but wanted me to shoot a 550 in a competition before I could start using it (I'm considering a similar requirement for my juniors, score TBD). First competition that semester, 562. Motivational tools can be hard to come by at times, so it's best to keep a few laying around.

On a side note, also consider that with a CA gun, you need to either buy a scuba tank, hand pump, compressor, or wait to fill it up at your club. A gun you pump before each shot is a nice way to keep costs and hassle down a bit. For you junior program directors out there, it's also a way to only introduce kids to filling up with a scuba tank who you know you can trust (insert image of scuba tank missile).

Disclaimer: There are plenty of kids out there who will do just fine on all these points on their own, thus this post does not apply. But those kids aren't the ones we coaches have to pull out all the tricks for anyways.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:40 pm

Soupy44 wrote

That brings me to attention. Having to take the rifle out of position makes you really concentrate on your position. This is something that a CA rifle can hamper the development of. Shooters early on can let their positions fall apart (mainly consistent butt plate placement in the shoulder) when introduced to a CA gun too early.

I do agree with this concept. Many of us have the luxury of having both a Sporter and a Precision rifle program. I would never take a kid and put them right on a P-gun. I usually take the view that if the shooter can shoot a 3-P 3x20 Sporter rifle and be in the 525+ range, hey, I'll let them try a P-gun.

It's awfully hard to hide bad habits in jeans and a tee-shirt

rotor · Post by **rotor** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:03 pm

To think from the olympic style shooting perspective, this is a matter of tactical advantage instead of technical. For example FWB Mod. P70 (CA)has no technical advantage (like much accuracy, less vibration ......) over FWB Mod.603(Pistoned version of P70). So why to buy CA rifle?

The ISSF perspective says CA rifles make it possible to use shooting stand(tripod) so you won't have to lift the rifle from hip height each time. This is useful to protect the health of the rifle shooters (like back pain or waist pain)

Another perspective is that using the tripod makes the shooting rhythm faster, shortens the time of effort to concantrate to your posture and relaxing your muscles. You only move your arms to load and lift and lower your rifle..The whole body never moves.Settings are well protected...

But...When to switch...Well, there is no cocking lever rifle in the level of world championships finals (also now in qualifications) nearly since 2002. (Watch the final videos at www.issf.tv and you can see the rifles) The tactical advantages above i've wrote are all needed when...err...let's say if you become feeling really unhappy with a 9 shot...Even if you are unhappy with a 10.0, there is a need to switch your old "tactics" to a newer, shorter, accurater one like your old rifle to a CA one...

RoToR

TWP · Post by **TWP** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:00 pm

jhmartin wrote:Soupy44 wrote
That brings me to attention. Having to take the rifle out of position makes you really concentrate on your position. This is something that a CA rifle can hamper the development of. Shooters early on can let their positions fall apart (mainly consistent butt plate placement in the shoulder) when introduced to a CA gun too early.
I do agree with this concept. Many of us have the luxury of having both a Sporter and a Precision rifle program. I would never take a kid and put them right on a P-gun. I usually take the view that if the shooter can shoot a 3-P 3x20 Sporter rifle and be in the 525+ range, hey, I'll let them try a P-gun.

It's awfully hard to hide bad habits in jeans and a tee-shirt

I start kids in precision all the time without them ever touching a sporter rifle.

It depends upon what they want to do in their shooting career and if they are physically capable of shooting a precision rifle.

We have a High School league here that is all precision rifle. If I have a High School kid that wants to shoot in the league there is no reason wasting time on sporter.

Soupy44 · Post by **Soupy44** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:28 am

Sorry if there was some confusion. I didn't mean it was a mistake to start kids with precision. I personally have not shot sporter in my life. I was just putting those things out there as tools for all you coaches out there to keep in your bag of ideas. some kids need a little more motivation than others, and this is one way to do it.

Misny, we might have gotten a little off topic in here. My answer would be whenever you feel it would be right. Rotor is not completely correct in saying there are no pneumatic air rifles at the world championship level. The AMU guys have seen one or two out there and they are shooting scores that have gotten them into finals. If they were significantly better than compressed air, we would know about it by now.

My suggestion would be for you to get a goal for yourself for when you will switch. Let your parents and coaches know what your goal is as well. They can help you along the way. Until then, I doubt the action of cocking the rifle and pulling it out of your shoulder will hinder you. If anything, use it as a way to really concentrate on your position.

Good luck and good shooting.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:37 am

Sorry if there was some confusion. I didn't mean it was a mistake to start kids with precision.

I'm in the same boat too. Didn't mean it was wrong ... just that I am a 4-H program and all our shooters start in Sporter. Then if they want to move on to Precision, we have gear to do that. A progression of simple to more complex.

In terms of when to switch .... in Olympic style - I still think when you can afford it.

If you are shooting 3-P with it (i.e. most likely juniors), then probably last week.

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:05 am

Soupy44 wrote:Sorry if there was some confusion. I didn't mean it was a mistake to start kids with precision. I personally have not shot sporter in my life. I was just putting those things out there as tools for all you coaches out there to keep in your bag of ideas. some kids need a little more motivation than others, and this is one way to do it.

Misny, we might have gotten a little off topic in here. My answer would be whenever you feel it would be right. Rotor is not completely correct in saying there are no pneumatic air rifles at the world championship level. The AMU guys have seen one or two out there and they are shooting scores that have gotten them into finals. If they were significantly better than compressed air, we would know about it by now.

My suggestion would be for you to get a goal for yourself for when you will switch. Let your parents and coaches know what your goal is as well. They can help you along the way. Until then, I doubt the action of cocking the rifle and pulling it out of your shoulder will hinder you. If anything, use it as a way to really concentrate on your position.

Good luck and good shooting.

Thanks for the informed opinions, but my dad is 84 and not interested in my precision air rifle shooting...so much for parental involvement 8^) I have no coaches except for you folks here who are generous with your time. In reality I'm an oldster at 60, just starting out in air rifle. I am really enjoying the journey. Thanks again for all the help. Keep it coming!