I'm looking for help convincing my gun club's BOD that it's not illegal nor a horrible risk to loan out our rifles to the individual families of our program. I had to buy a safe myself to store the guns at my house and transport them all to our practices and matches.
Should we decide to let this go through, the family (JR club participant and one parent) must complete the NRA Home Firearms Safety Course, a supplement to that which our club gives that details our state's gun laws, and the parents must show legal ability to own a firearm through concealed carry permit, pistol purchase permit, or a letter from the sheriff.
The biggest help I could use would be legal precedents in your home state, rulings by your club lawyers and insurance companies if possible, and any documents you might use in loaning out rifles. I need real specifics on this to build my case on.
Thanks.
Loaning Rifles to Juniors
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
You bring up some interesting points here.
No specifics from me ... sorry, but I think the requirements you listed are well thought out.
This coming from one who just loaned out 2 smallbore rifles to juniors (with parent permission) for them to take back to their home range and practice with and do a bit of weight/balance & fitting work.
I'm from N.M. and about the only thing I'd have trouble doing would be loaning out a pistol to a junior, but I had no issue (myself) with loaning out two rifles to 18/19 year old experienced shooters.
(I know times have changed .... as 15/16 year olds, we used to keep our rifles and pistols in the trunk of our cars and go out to the range after swim practice in the mornings before school .... even our coach would come out with us some mornings ... our high school coach .... snow waist high .... uphill to school both ways ..... can you remember those days?)
As I said .... causes me to rethink and reverify my actions & position. Please keep us posed on your efforts .... success &/or failure.
No specifics from me ... sorry, but I think the requirements you listed are well thought out.
This coming from one who just loaned out 2 smallbore rifles to juniors (with parent permission) for them to take back to their home range and practice with and do a bit of weight/balance & fitting work.
I'm from N.M. and about the only thing I'd have trouble doing would be loaning out a pistol to a junior, but I had no issue (myself) with loaning out two rifles to 18/19 year old experienced shooters.
(I know times have changed .... as 15/16 year olds, we used to keep our rifles and pistols in the trunk of our cars and go out to the range after swim practice in the mornings before school .... even our coach would come out with us some mornings ... our high school coach .... snow waist high .... uphill to school both ways ..... can you remember those days?)
As I said .... causes me to rethink and reverify my actions & position. Please keep us posed on your efforts .... success &/or failure.
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
I feel compelled to relate a personal experience about the young having access to firearms. Make that atheletic equipment. When I was ten years old and rode my pony aproximately five miles to school each day, I also carried a 22 rifle as squirrels were plentiful and tastey. I unloaded it when I reached the school took it inside and proped it behind the entry door until school was out. I then recovered my rifle, saddled my horse, And shot squirrels on the way home. My how things have changed!!!!Good Shooting Bill Horton
I'm sure it's legal for us to loan these rifle to our juniors, I just don't have the legal background to prove it.
There is also the insurance company to deal with. It wouldn't be too hard to loan rifles to club members in our junior program, but the bulk of our junior's families are not club members. I've been attempting to argue our junior club families in as members through some wording in our bylaws, but that's me mincing words for my own ends, I admit it.
Even if you cannot tell me anything concerning the legalities of this, if anyone can tell me you junior program's policies and procedures for loaning out rifles, I can use that too.
Thanks again.
There is also the insurance company to deal with. It wouldn't be too hard to loan rifles to club members in our junior program, but the bulk of our junior's families are not club members. I've been attempting to argue our junior club families in as members through some wording in our bylaws, but that's me mincing words for my own ends, I admit it.
Even if you cannot tell me anything concerning the legalities of this, if anyone can tell me you junior program's policies and procedures for loaning out rifles, I can use that too.
Thanks again.
The Maine Winter Sports Center ( http://www.MaineWSC.org ) has a program where they lend or lease (I forget) Anchutes biathlon rifles to juniors. The kids keep the rifles for the season. You might want to contact them and see how the system works. Its a great benefit and puts TOL rifles into the kids hands so they can train as and when they want. MWSC has several kids, now adults, competing on the World Cup.
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ed larson
We are a 4-H club and we have a policy to check equipment only to certified coaches. The implication there is that the adult is a certificied coach and 4-H leader, so there is (we think) legal coverage. We do not check anything out to the members, even if they are 18. We also make the connection that the member will be then shooting with a certified coach.
From experience in our club,
I would say do not loan out equipment to juniors, be it rifle or anything else.
Club equipment stays at the club. If you travel to a match one of the coaches signs out the equipment and brings it to the match. Equipment needs to be returned the following day.
It's much easier to do things this way than it is to try and chase down someone who moved out of town with your clubs rifle.
We still have one small bore rifle that no one knows where it is.
Also if anything bad happens with the rifle you have sent home with a junior they are going to sue your club for supplying it. Doesn't matter if it was legal or you made them take training. The gun belonged to your club and in the eyes of those who like to file lawsuits the club probably has land, money and insurance to go after.
I think your club BOD is right on this one.
I would say do not loan out equipment to juniors, be it rifle or anything else.
Club equipment stays at the club. If you travel to a match one of the coaches signs out the equipment and brings it to the match. Equipment needs to be returned the following day.
It's much easier to do things this way than it is to try and chase down someone who moved out of town with your clubs rifle.
We still have one small bore rifle that no one knows where it is.
Also if anything bad happens with the rifle you have sent home with a junior they are going to sue your club for supplying it. Doesn't matter if it was legal or you made them take training. The gun belonged to your club and in the eyes of those who like to file lawsuits the club probably has land, money and insurance to go after.
I think your club BOD is right on this one.
We do loan out everything except the rifle at this point. The thing is we are shooting at a range this winter which does not belong to the club, and is roughly 45min-1 hour from our club. I have 13 kids who come every Monday night Oct-February for this, our Winter League. I'm packed to capacity in my car just transporting the guns.
Also, I'm a college student, limiting my time and financial resources for when I can be where. I had to buy a gun safe for my house in order for this league to happen. I'm expecting another half dozen people to want to participate in the league next winter bringing my total close to 20 (I'll have to buy another safe). In pure terms of logistics, loaning out the rifles for the families to take home will soon become a necessity. I may now add that the rifles may only be used in certain places such as matches and commercial rifle ranges.
I am currently working on raising $7000 in the next year to purchase 10 air rifles (mixture of Walter LG30s and Feinwerkbau 300S). These would complete the program I'm running allowing them to shoot air rifle at practices and matches. But most of all, I was really wanting to make sure the kids could use the air rifles at home for practice. Air rifles may be easier to loan out since we would be avoiding the firearms laws, but I would still have the same requirements in order to take one home.
All of my juniors have made more progress in the first month and a half of the winter league than in the 8 months before in our summer program, during which we only meet once a month. Perfect practice makes perfect, and the more perfect practice the better.
Thank you all again, and if there are any lawyers reading this that are willing to do a little research for me, I will take your call 24/7, 365 :-).
Also, I'm a college student, limiting my time and financial resources for when I can be where. I had to buy a gun safe for my house in order for this league to happen. I'm expecting another half dozen people to want to participate in the league next winter bringing my total close to 20 (I'll have to buy another safe). In pure terms of logistics, loaning out the rifles for the families to take home will soon become a necessity. I may now add that the rifles may only be used in certain places such as matches and commercial rifle ranges.
I am currently working on raising $7000 in the next year to purchase 10 air rifles (mixture of Walter LG30s and Feinwerkbau 300S). These would complete the program I'm running allowing them to shoot air rifle at practices and matches. But most of all, I was really wanting to make sure the kids could use the air rifles at home for practice. Air rifles may be easier to loan out since we would be avoiding the firearms laws, but I would still have the same requirements in order to take one home.
All of my juniors have made more progress in the first month and a half of the winter league than in the 8 months before in our summer program, during which we only meet once a month. Perfect practice makes perfect, and the more perfect practice the better.
Thank you all again, and if there are any lawyers reading this that are willing to do a little research for me, I will take your call 24/7, 365 :-).
I know the feeling of hauling gear! I have a shell on my F250 PU and we used to have to pack it to the gills.
This past year we purchased a tandem axle trailer that I can park INSIDE the range and lock up ... most of our gear goes in there now. We use it as a storage room.
I also agree and understand the improvement with the more often practices.
I tell my mids if they want to progress they need to be practicing (somehow) three times a week (that may include holding exercises at home).
Two times a week and they will hold even .... once a week, they will get to a certain level and progress will taper off.
Once every other week and you'll be going backwards
This past year we purchased a tandem axle trailer that I can park INSIDE the range and lock up ... most of our gear goes in there now. We use it as a storage room.
I also agree and understand the improvement with the more often practices.
I tell my mids if they want to progress they need to be practicing (somehow) three times a week (that may include holding exercises at home).
Two times a week and they will hold even .... once a week, they will get to a certain level and progress will taper off.
Once every other week and you'll be going backwards
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Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
If you think your F250 is packed to the gills, you should see 13 rifles in Soupy's VW Jetta...and it isn't a stationwagon, either. He's totally amazing.
I can only compare the '08 trip to Perry in my wife's Pontiac Sunfire - 2 rifles, gear, clothing and two adults. The frame was sitting on the axles, but still got 34 MPG.
I can only compare the '08 trip to Perry in my wife's Pontiac Sunfire - 2 rifles, gear, clothing and two adults. The frame was sitting on the axles, but still got 34 MPG.
An update on my research:
I am looking at leases that keep landlords from being sued for tenants doing illegal activities on their property. I have come to realize that we are not violating any firearms laws by loaning them out, it becomes a matter of ownership and where the liability falls.
I have also found that one county adjacent our club makes no distinction between firearms and air rifles in their laws for kids under 12. I don't think this will be a problem as I'm thinking of making 12 the minimum age to be loaned a rifle.
I am looking at leases that keep landlords from being sued for tenants doing illegal activities on their property. I have come to realize that we are not violating any firearms laws by loaning them out, it becomes a matter of ownership and where the liability falls.
I have also found that one county adjacent our club makes no distinction between firearms and air rifles in their laws for kids under 12. I don't think this will be a problem as I'm thinking of making 12 the minimum age to be loaned a rifle.
Loaning rifles in California
Well, our club is located in California and we loan out rifles to our Junior members ( through their Gaurdian ) for Competition and practice purposes. The law that is followed states:
The waiting period and dealer application do not
apply to transfers to police officers, other gun dealers,
manufacturers, or importers, antique firearms, and rifles
and shotguns which are classified as curios or relics by the
federal government, infrequent gifts or transfers to one’s
“immediate family,” an infrequent temporary loan not to
exceed 30 days to a person who is not prohibited from
possessing a firearm, and a transfer of a rifle or shotgun at
auctions by nonprofit or public benefit corporations.
the full law can be found at:
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CASL.pdf
We have never had any issues in the past 30 years doing this. We do have signout sheets for all equipment for auditing purposes.
The waiting period and dealer application do not
apply to transfers to police officers, other gun dealers,
manufacturers, or importers, antique firearms, and rifles
and shotguns which are classified as curios or relics by the
federal government, infrequent gifts or transfers to one’s
“immediate family,” an infrequent temporary loan not to
exceed 30 days to a person who is not prohibited from
possessing a firearm, and a transfer of a rifle or shotgun at
auctions by nonprofit or public benefit corporations.
the full law can be found at:
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CASL.pdf
We have never had any issues in the past 30 years doing this. We do have signout sheets for all equipment for auditing purposes.
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2650 Plus
Post subject
If you happen to be in an area where the non shooting polititions hav promulgated laws that make it imposible to loan firearms to your junior shooters [They will usually refer to the rifles as weapons ] Try loaning them air refles for training. Many will be able to train indoors so the neighbors will not be anoyed or concerned about birds and cats being shot. Most of the time the pols forget about the air guns and its harder to call them weapons with out sounding like a fool. Good Shooting Bill Horton
In terms of laws to get around, I only have problems if I loan the rifles to kids under 12 in certain counties, that goes for both air rifles and .22s. More of my issues now are coming from convincing an insurance company that loaning rifles out isn't going to lead to school shootings. If anyone's got any experience negotiating with insurance companies, I'm all ears.
Basically we will have to legally transfer the gun to the possession of the family of the kids who will use it, much like a lease on a home or apartment.
Basically we will have to legally transfer the gun to the possession of the family of the kids who will use it, much like a lease on a home or apartment.
I'm not understanding your problem with the insurance company. Once you have a signed agreement with the borrower your liability is negligible (just as if you lent your chainsaw to a neighbor, and they misused it). The agreement to borrow should include responsibility for damage or loss to the rifle, so the insurance company would have no interest.
The agreement to lend/borrow wouldn't be a true transfer of owner ship, just as a lease does not transfer ownership of a building, so you retain ownership but with someone else assuming liability. Iam not alawyer, but am 33 insurance agent.
The agreement to lend/borrow wouldn't be a true transfer of owner ship, just as a lease does not transfer ownership of a building, so you retain ownership but with someone else assuming liability. Iam not alawyer, but am 33 insurance agent.